Back to Previous Page

Back to Previous Page

[Announcer] (0:00 - 0:18) Think about the Bible like you never have before. You're listening to Christian Questions. Access more audio, videos, and Bible study resources at ChristianQuestions.com.

Our topic is "Should Women be Pastors?" Part II Here's Rick, Jonathan, and Julie.

[Rick] (0:20 - 0:30) Welcome, everyone. I'm Rick. I'm joined by Jonathan, my co-host for over 25 years, and Julie, a long-time contributor, is also with us.

Jonathan, what's our theme in Scripture for this episode?

[Jonathan] (0:31 - 0:53) Galatians 3:27-29: "For all of you who were baptized into Christ hath clothed yourself with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female;

for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise."

[Rick] (0:54 - 2:04) In Part I of this two-part series, we introduced several reasons why many Christians believe that women should be able to be pastors. Our scriptural considerations began with understanding what the equality in Christ in our theme text actually means. We found that it's pointing to an immovable foundation for people of different ethnicities, different social standings, and both genders to stand firmly upon.

While Christ does not change our heritage, our social standing, or our gender privileges, he equally welcomes all of us. We also briefly examined the roles of a few prominent Old Testament women. Here we discovered that even though they were wise and chosen prophets of God, that did not open the door for them to be in any way related to the priesthood of Israel.

That's where we got started. Let's continue looking at this really difficult discussion, this debate, if you will, looking at the roles of a few women now in the New Testament. Does the pattern change in the New Testament versus the Old Testament, or does it remain the same?

[Jonathan] (2:04 - 2:31) One of the most important principles of understanding the teachings of Jesus is knowing what he based them on. The Old Testament gives us a clear view of humanity's fall from God's favor. The Law upheld these consequences, and then Jesus used them to establish how Christianity would operate.

We will see that the New Testament grows out of the principles and experiences of the Old Testament.

[Julie] (2:31 - 3:34) The two major positions of this debate are that of Egalitarian, who say men and women are equal in value and role, and women can be pastors or elders, and Complementarians, who say the genders complement each other and that they're equal in value but not in role. They would say they are not scripturally authorized to be pastors or elders. In full disclosure, we agree with that last statement.

But we want to fairly present the arguments, so we're going to continue down our list of Egalitarian points. We covered the first <Point 1> in part one and briefly started with the Point 2 about the women in the Old Testament. The point is there were MANY women in leadership roles in both the Old and New Testaments, they would say.

Let's start with Priscilla in the New Testament. She and her husband Aquila taught Apollos. They traveled with Paul into great danger, and the Egalitarian point is that Priscilla was a courageous leader, and she was even always named first before her husband.

Let's look at Acts 18:24-26:

[Jonathan] (3:35 - 4:00) "Now a Jew named Apollos... came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. ...and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue.

But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately."

[Rick] (4:01 - 4:35) This is a powerful, powerful example, because we know that Apollos really stood in a very influential way as Christianity developed. Paul talks about him, and yet at the beginning of his Christian role, he really wasn't entirely on board with the appropriate teaching, and who comes to the rescue, but Priscilla and Aquila. They help him, they guide him, and they direct him.

There's something very powerful about their role in his life here, in his growing into the spiritual maturity that he did grow into. Let's also look at Romans 16:3-4:

[Jonathan] (4:35 - 5:08) "Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles." Just a note, Prisca is her formal name. Priscilla is the familiar, everyday form of her name.

It's like Jonathan vs. Jon, or Catherine vs. Kate.

We have a lot of additional information on the bonus material of this week's CQ Rewind Show Notes, including more on Priscilla and her importance.

[Julie] (5:08 - 5:25) She's mentioned more times than just these two examples, but I do notice that in all the times she's mentioned, she's never mentioned without her husband. So they did have a shared ministry as a team, and while she did have spiritual maturity and influence, she never held a formal leadership title.

[Jonathan] (5:26 - 5:42) It's true she's listed first with her husband in four out of six references, but that doesn't contradict the New Testament's teaching on church leadership. It does show how God uses gifted women in meaningful ways within the structure he established.

[Rick] (5:42 - 6:07) It's important to recognize that. What it's showing is she was important, she was valuable, and she had great, great contribution, the fact that she's mentioned first. You have to look at that and say, that's awesome.

Because what it's doing is it's saying, this isn't a cultural thing. This is a reality thing. Look at what she was able to contribute along with her husband.

Very important point for us.

[Julie] (6:08 - 6:33) Now, Rick and Jonathan, for many women, this topic is painful because they love God, they love Scripture, they want to serve, and they want to serve in this capacity. The Complementarian view isn't a statement about value or ability, but it's about God's design for order in the church. That doesn't restrict women from teaching and leading and witnessing and counseling or serving in countless other ways.

[Rick] (6:33 - 7:09) That's an important point. The idea here is understanding God's perspective, direction, and order, and then lovingly and enthusiastically flocking towards where we can fit in that order. It's not one's better than another.

It truly, truly isn't. We're going to go through several Scriptures that help us to see that and more clearly as we go. Priscilla is a great example.

Phoebe: Phoebe is another example in the New Testament--a very faithful and responsible servant of the early church. Let's look at Romans 16:1-2:

[Jonathan] (7:10 - 7:34) "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who was a servant. (That's the same Greek word translated elsewhere as "deacon") of the church which is in Cenchrea; that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and that you help her in whatever matter she may have need of you; for she herself has also been a helper of many, and of myself as well."

[Julie] (7:35 - 8:02) Wow. "I commend to you our sister Phoebe." Many scholars think that she was the one who physically delivered Paul's letter to the Romans, which would have required maturity and courage.

Obviously, Paul thought highly of her. Now, an Egalitarian would say, Jonathan, you read, she was a servant, and that's the Greek word for "deacon:" diakonos. Paul used that same word to describe himself and for official deacons that were in that role.

[Jonathan] (8:03 - 8:25) Yes, but that word simply means "servant" or "minister" or "helper." It's also used to describe government officials and Christ himself. The word doesn't automatically mean deacon as an office.

Context determines meaning. In Romans 16, Paul is commending Phoebe's character and service, not assigning her an office.

[Rick] (8:25 - 8:56) All right, so the big question then is, so was Phoebe a "deacon"--holding an office, or, as you just said in terms of service, being a very diligent, very faithful servant with what she was given to do? We don't believe that she was officially holding the office of a deacon. Why?

Why don't we believe that? Well, the qualifications for deacons in the New Testament clearly include being male. Let's look at some of these Scriptures. Look at 1 Timothy 3:8-13:

[Jonathan] (8:56 - 9:00) "Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued... Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. Even so must their wives (women) be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree..."

[Julie] (9:35 - 9:52) Again, Phoebe's called a "servant" --that same word later used for deacon--but these qualifications for deacon in 1 Timothy 3 describe men. I think that her role was one of trusted service and influence, but not this formal office of deacon.

[Rick] (9:53 - 10:38) If we look deeper into the Scriptures, we're going to see how that formal office of deacon was put in place for very specific reasons, and there's very specific guidelines surrounding it. Again, the point is, you can serve, you can be deacon in your attitude, in your actions, and in your process, but it doesn't necessarily mean you are a deacon that holds the ultimate responsibility of that office. There's a difference between doing the work and doing it and also being where the buck stops.

The buck stops there. That's what the office of deacon actually was. Let's go a little further.

Let's go to another very important female in the New Testament. Julie, who's next?

[Julie] (10:38 - 10:53) Junia: Another outstanding New Testament example of living the life of Christian sacrifice. She's often considered the strongest Egalitarian case for women in church authority, and we're going to see why in Romans 16:7.

[Jonathan] (10:54 - 11:12) This is from the New Living Translation: "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did."

Andronicus is believed to be male and Junia is believed to be female.

[Julie] (11:13 - 11:52) The debate is over the phrase, "highly respected among the apostles," in which translated literally from Greek means "notable as apostles." Was she well known to the apostles or was she an outstanding apostle herself? Grammatically, this phrase can mean either.

The word "apostle" itself simply means "sent one," "messenger," "one sent forth with orders." Barnabas is called an apostle, meaning a messenger in this broader sense. Epaphroditus is called an apostle or a messenger.

Even Jesus is called an apostle. But these weren't one of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, of Jesus.

[Jonathan] (11:52 - 12:17) So even if Junia were a "missionary type apostle," Scripture never presents her as holding the authoritative teaching or governing office. Paul restricts that in 1 Timothy chapters 2 and 3. Instead, her life shows deep faithfulness sacrifice, and influence -- a powerful example of gospel service, NOT church office.

[Rick] (12:17 - 13:16) It's also interesting that you don't see a lot written about Junia. As a matter of fact, I think this is all you see written about her. What it is is a commendation, a commendation of this person of high character.

I do believe that it is that she was highly respected among the apostles. When you think about the Apostle Paul saying, "Note Andronicus and Junia." First of all, they're my fellow Jews.

They have the same heritage as I do. Remember, heritage didn't go away. Gender didn't go away.

Social status didn't go away. He's saying, these come from the same background as me. They were in prison with me, the two of them.

They experienced the same things I did, and they're highly respected because of their experience. It shows a life of sacrifice that is admirable and inspirational to so many others.

Such a beautiful, beautiful experience to see Andronicus and Junia described that way.

[Julie] (13:16 - 13:54) Rick, this leads to the modern argument of competency. Women today are well-educated. We lead companies, hospitals, universities, and governmental agencies.

We manage teams, budgets, crises, and long-term strategies. Many women are more educated or spiritually mature than the men in their congregations. Many have strong teaching gifts.

The question naturally arises: If a woman can lead at the highest levels of society, why can't she teach formally in church? And if God has clearly given her the gift of teaching, why shouldn't she use it as a pastor or an elder?

[Jonathan] (13:54 - 14:26) Competency isn't the issue. Scripture honors gifted, wise women. The real question is how those gifts fit within God's design for church order.

Gifts are given broadly. Offices are signed narrowly. Gifting shows ability.

Office shows responsibility. They are NOT the same. God calls all Christians to use their gifts, but He assigns the governing and teaching authority of the church according to His design, not human capability.

[Rick] (14:26 - 16:02) That's an important factor, because we can always look at, no matter who we are, say, well, this person is more competent than that person. This person is so much better to be in that. Why can't you stop and replace them with?

We can go on and on and on and on and on and on and on... The bottom line here is, whom do we serve? We serve our God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, whose rules, whose guidance, whose principle, whose guardrails are we to be walking within? Those of our God and our Lord Jesus Christ. I can have all the opinions I want, but do they fit within those guidelines?

See, in all of these cases, of all of these women that we've been looking at, their incredible service, their incredible leadership in the context in which they led, their incredible example, their courage, their faith, all of these things, it did not equate to the role of teaching the church. Now, why? Why couldn't it?

And Julie, that's the core of your question. Why not? How come?

Look at the qualification. This is the beginning of the answer, because the answer is much bigger than this. Teaching and leading the church was reserved for brothers.

You go, oh, what a lame excuse. Let's hang on, let's read the Scriptures, let's understand them, and then let's look at what's beneath them and behind them and see the big picture. We need to get to the big picture by putting some of the important details in place.

This is where we will start. The fact that according to Scripture, teaching and leading the church was reserved for brothers. 1 Timothy 3:1-2:

[Jonathan] (16:03 - 16:04) "It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach..."

[Rick] (16:23 - 16:54) The office of overseer, which is elder, pastor, it's all interchangeable. There has to be a lot of great character development in that, and they have to be able to teach. The King James Version says, "...apt to teach."

Have the ability to teach. Notice not the gift of teaching, but able to teach. That's important, and we're going to come back to that.

We're not just going to leave that here, but it says, husband of one wife. It makes it very, very clear. It's a simple, straightforward statement.

Let's go to 1 Timothy 3:4:

[Jonathan] (16:54 - 17:01) "He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity."

[Julie] (17:02 - 17:43) To fairly present the Egalitarian perspective, they would say that Paul used these male examples as representing both genders. We see the phrase "sons of God," and we know that that also includes daughters, and "man" is used to generically include "person." They say Paul uses these male examples because that culture assumed a male head of the household with potentially multiple wives in that culture, and Greek grammar defaults to masculine forms.

So they would say that Paul is describing a typical elder, not that he's limiting the office only to men, and husband of one wife would be "faithful to one spouse," not "has to be male."

[Jonathan] (17:44 - 17:48) Well, every named elder or overseer in the New Testament is male.

[Julie] (17:48 - 17:49) Good point.

[Rick] (17:49 - 18:52) Okay, but there's much more to that. Let's understand...

you're right. You can say, well, it's because of culture, it's because of culture, it's because of culture... but all of the proofs that we've looked at in Part I, we talked about the Levitical priesthood, all men, obviously, unequivocally all men. Let's look at what Jesus did.

Jesus took women and elevated them beyond what culture required. He called twelve to be the ones who were the pillars of the church, and they're named, and they're all men. When the first deacons came into play in Acts 6, it says, "...get seven men of great character, ..." and it names them -- they're all men. You have this pattern that is unequivocal, it's established from the Old, it carries in through Jesus, it carries into the beginning of the gospel preaching of the apostles and so forth, and it just keeps on going.

You can say that, but what do the Scriptures clearly teach? There's a pattern, and we can't deny the pattern. Let's go further with that pattern, Titus 1:5-6:

[Jonathan] (18:53 - 19:10) "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion."

[Rick] (19:11 - 19:28) In writing to Titus, the Apostle Paul is saying the same kinds of things, same kind of character, and the same qualification of the husband of one wife. Let's take a little bit of a different look, let's look at 1 Peter, this is the Apostle Peter now, chapter 5:1-2, 5 <1 Peter 5:1-2, 5>:

[Jonathan] (19:28 - 20:06) "Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ... shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight... according to the will of God... with eagerness... You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE." I see the Apostle Peter agreeing with and confirming what Paul wrote to Timothy, which is also confirmed in Titus.

Peter affirms how the church is to have official male leaders.

[Rick] (20:07 - 20:53) We've come across very strongly on this point, because we have several Scriptures that we're saying, well look, look, this is what it says. Why? Why is it men?

Why? What's the reason? You've got this, okay, all right, you hammered away, it's men, but why?

When we understand the why, we can put the rest into a much broader order. The Apostle Paul gives us two very compelling reasons as to why men. First, the man/woman relationship is a powerful picture of spirituality.

Listen carefully to what this text teaches us. Ephesians 5:22-25:

[Jonathan] (20:54 - 21:21) "Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, he himself being the savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her."

[Julie] (21:21 - 22:07) This section here is exactly why I really feel strongly about this topic, about women not being the leadership role. This same pure concept of headship that we saw, we looked at last week in Adam and Eve before sin entered, it's a picture of Christ and his church. Respecting headship is how we honor Jesus.

Even Christ himself models it because he is always under the headship of his Father for eternity. 1 Corinthians 15:28: "When all things are subjected to him, then the son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all."

[Jonathan] (22:08 - 22:15) Headship is not about superiority. It's about reflecting order, the same arrangement Christ himself follows.

[Rick] (22:16 - 23:07) What this is doing is it's saying we have an example and we need to follow the example. This is part of how we follow the example. The male-female relationship is a picture of the sacredness, the sacredness of Christ and his church, and how the church is supposed to be working under the leadership and guidance of Christ.

And because the Apostle says that, we can't just take that and say, well, yeah, but we need to let the Scripture tell us what it's telling us. That's the first point, the first major point. The second major point that the Apostle makes about the men vs. women situation with teaching in the church, is going back to the beginning, going back to creation to Adam and Eve. 1 Timothy 2:12-14:

[Jonathan] (23:07 - 23:23) "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve." Headship is not subservience.

It was the design from the beginning.

[Julie] (23:23 - 23:50) That's right. Paul says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 11:7-9: "For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God;

but the woman is the glory of man. ..." Again, you may not like this, but it says: "... For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; (You remember the rib was taken from Adam to create Eve.)

For indeed, man was not created for woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake."

[Jonathan] (23:50 - 24:00) Then Paul continues in 1 Timothy 2:14: "And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived fell into transgression."

[Julie] (24:00 - 24:31) What began as this created design, this pure headship, was later distorted by sin. The fall shows the consequences of stepping outside of God's design. His original arrangement was good and it was balanced. It wasn't demeaning.

Sin introduces this struggle between man and woman, but it didn't erase God's original order. That structure that God gives for the church reflects the original creation design, not the corrupted version that came after sin.

[Rick] (24:31 - 25:23) The headship then, when we look at our relationship to Christ, how many of us look at that and say, well that's demeaning, he's our head, he's going to have to guide us and direct us. When it says the relationship between men and women is a picture of that, if we are fulfilling that picture, as men we need to love our wives as Christ loves the church. That's a big responsibility! As women we need to have respect and reverence for that whole picture, because that's what it's showing. This is how I love Jesus.

It's a powerful picture. That's why we as Christians want to abide by it, because the Scriptures tell us, this is what you're exampling in your lives. Please follow that higher example.

Let's get back to Establishing the scriptural role of women in the true church:

[Jonathan] (25:23 - 25:48) The examples of these New Testament female heroes of faith are inspiring. They served, they put their lives on the line, and were recognized for their faithfulness. With all of this in place, we see these women playing a vital role in leading by example.

These women are showing us that leadership does NOT need to only come from pastors and elders, it can come from all who serve!

[Rick] (25:49 - 26:31) That's such a powerful point. Wherever we stand in the realm of the body of Christ, we can lead by example. I can't tell you how many times the smallest example of the individual who doesn't have bunches of talents and tons of opportunities has been there, and it literally brings me to tears to watch their faithfulness, and it spurs me to want to serve more fully.

There's such power in understanding what we can learn if we accept how these Scriptures are showing us. Look, with such powerful examples of faith in action, the concept is that every Christian, no matter who they are, can inspire and lead all of us!

[Jonathan] (26:31 - 26:39) What about the gifts of the spirit? And does all of this mean that women are supposed to be shut down and exist in silence?

[Rick] (26:39 - 27:04) Okay, now we get to it. Let's remember the extraordinary examples of the faithful women we have just reviewed. They have plainly displayed faith, courage, and sacrifice, and action for all of us to appreciate.

Let's also remember that the gifts of the spirit were given to both men and women. The question is, do those gifts change any of the conclusions that the Scriptures have already established?

[Julie] (27:05 - 28:11) Before we get too far into the gifts, I just want to bring up one other Egalitarian position that's worth mentioning, and that's the Patriarchy Argument. It states that because the Bible reflects a patriarchal culture, some restrictions might be cultural and not eternal. We know that in the ancient world, women had very limited legal rights, limited education, or public voice, and the reason is the argument that women aren't seen in leadership in Church history not because Scripture teaches male headship -- which we believe it does -- but because patriarchal institutions like the Medieval Catholic Church suppressed and distorted women's voices and promoted male bias. One of my own pet peeves is that there's a Pope who had started the rumor that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, even though there's no Scripture to prove it. That's an example of putting women down.

Early church councils were all male. The allegation is that when men preserved stories of male leadership, they minimized the contributions of women, maximized the male contributions.

[Jonathan] (28:11 - 28:35) The same early church that preserved Paul's restrictions also preserved the stories of faithful women like Phoebe, Priscilla, Junia, and Lydia. Paul's teaching on headship goes back to God's design for creation, not the culture of the time. So while history has misrepresented women, and it surely has, Scripture itself consistently honors them.

[Rick] (28:35 - 29:20) The other part of this is recognizing that the Bible, as Christians we believe, is the word of God. When we look at the way the Bible describes the relationship, it is very plain up to this point. What's my decision?

What am I going to do with the word of God? Am I going to say the word of God is therefore contaminated by culture, or am I going to accept the word of God, where Old Testament to New Testament and everything in between all say the same thing, or am I going to embrace it or say, no, I don't like it, so I might want to reject it? Think about that.

Just think about that in terms of where we put this, because it's so important. We are following God's word. Julie, let's move forward to the next point on the Egalitarian points of view <Point 3>:

[Julie] (29:21 - 29:27) They say God distributed spiritual gifts without regarding gender, and therefore leadership should follow gifting.

[Rick] (29:28 - 29:37) Okay. When the spirit came upon the apostles of Pentecost, they began speaking in tongues. Peter quoted the prophet Joel.

Jonathan, let's go to Acts 2:17-18:

[Jonathan] (29:37 - 29:58) "AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS, God says, THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT and they shall prophesy."

[Julie] (29:58 - 30:11) Peter quotes Joel's prophecy that God would pour out His spirit on sons AND daughters, and that men AND women would prophesy. Egalitarians point to this and say, well, if women could prophesy, why can't they teach in the church?

[Jonathan] (30:12 - 30:27) Well, Peter quoted Joel to show that God was pouring out His spirit, not to redefine church leadership. Pentecost was the beginning of the miraculous gifts that helped establish the early church, not a statement about who should hold the teaching office.

[Rick] (30:27 - 31:50) You're right, and that's an important distinction in looking at this. Peter was actually using that prophecy to demonstrate that prophecy's very beginning stages. I mean, because Peter, in verse 17, he quotes this prophecy is to be fulfilled "in the last days."

It wasn't the last days then. You're like, okay, then why is he even quoting it if it wasn't being fulfilled? Because Pentecost was a demonstration of the power of God's spirit being poured out.

This is what it would look like. It could change things in a dramatic way, in a dramatic sense, and yes, on the sons and daughters, but it didn't apply then directly in its full fulfillment. We want to understand that this prophecy is showing us... yes, sons and daughters, but Jonathan, your point is very well taken.

This is not saying, and they shall teach within the church. It talks about contribution, not the office of teaching. There's a big difference we need to look at with this.

Pentecost introduced the New Testament gifts of the spirit, and that began with speaking in tongues. These gifts were powerful early church tools. You've got to ask yourself, what does this tell us about teaching in the church?

What do these gifts of the spirit tell us about teaching in the church? What's the correlation? Let's look for that.

1 Corinthians 12:7-10:

[Jonathan] (31:50 - 32:37) "But to each one is given the manifestation of the spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the spirit, and to the other the word of knowledge according to the same spirit; to another faith by the same spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues." Notice that teaching or governing the church is not listed as a spiritual gift. "Apt to teach" is a qualification for elders, not a miraculous gift.

Gifts were for building the early church, not for determining who holds the office of elder.

[Rick] (32:37 - 32:40) That's a big point.

[Julie] (32:40 - 32:40) Yeah, it's a good point.

[Rick] (32:41 - 33:12) Yeah, when we go to the Scriptures -- we go to the holy Scriptures -- let's take them for what they are saying, for what they are teaching, and put them in place recognizing the expansiveness as well as the limitations, what it's referring to and what it's not referring to. Now these gifts DID have a place in the early church, but their use ended. How do we know their use ended?

The Apostle Paul told us. Let's look at 1 Corinthians 13:8-10:

[Jonathan] (33:12 - 33:28) "Love never fails, but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."

[Julie] (33:29 - 34:05) The gifts had a vital place in the early church, but here Paul says they were temporary. Prophecy, tongues, miraculous knowledge would all cease when "the perfect" -- we believe that's the completed word of God --arrived. These gifts helped establish the church before Scripture was fully written, but once God's word was complete (Old Testament, New Testament) "the partial" gave way to the complete.

Though these miraculous gifts ceased, the spirit still equips Christians -- men and women alike -- to serve and teach and encourage within the boundaries God designed.

[Jonathan] (34:06 - 34:09) Equal gifting shows equal worth, but not identical calling.

[Rick] (34:10 - 34:49) It's so important, and folks, as we go through these points and we put the Scriptures on the table and discuss them, recognize where there is a similarity and where there is a thread that you can connect, and recognize, let's legitimately recognize with integrity, when a thread doesn't connect, and say, okay, it goes this far, and we need to accept it as going this far, do we put these other pieces then? Look for the Scriptures to build the foundation to find how it all fits together.

I think once we do that, we can really come to a very "at peace" approach to understanding all of this. Again, let's go to Establishing the scriptural role of women in the true church:

[Jonathan] (34:49 - 35:03) As powerful as the gifts of the spirit were, they were not permanent and did not prepare anyone to become an Elder in the church, as their purpose was simply to stimulate the international establishment of the early church.

[Rick] (35:03 - 35:19) That's an important point. That's why they were given, so the gospel could spread beyond the boundaries of language and culture. And we see it worked.

The gospel has spread beyond such boundaries. So it's a powerful, powerful, powerful tool.

[Julie] (35:20 - 35:49) Yeah. Before we get to our last point, Point 4, let me ask you a pointed question: Rick, I know that you grew up in a church environment that was opposed to women serving in this elder or pastor role.

If you dig deep and really ask yourself the question, could you be biased on this matter? Is this matter one of conscience, like not eating meat offered to idols, where if you believe you're doing it or not doing it according to Scripture, that you should do it? Is there any wiggle room in this with you?

[Rick] (35:49 - 35:52) Could I be biased? Sure, I could be biased.

[Julie] (35:53 - 35:53) That's honest.

[Rick] (35:53 - 37:01) Okay. Well, seriously, but here's what I know. In looking at the Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, with the idea that, let me learn from what the Scriptures are teaching, rather than let me suggest what I'd like to conclude, on this particular subject, there have been so many texts from Genesis all the way through Scripture, all the way up into the New Testament that say, this is a process, this is a foundation, this is a relationship that God specifically, dynamically, intentionally put in place. We've talked about these Scriptures through these last two parts of the series, and so when I look at this -- now you can argue with it -- but I don't believe I'm seeing it from a perspective of bias.

I am desperately looking at it from perspective of, what is God's word telling me so I can tell others? This is what it's saying, and to me, it's loud and clear and verifiable again and again and again. Hope that answers your question.

[Julie] (37:02 - 37:02) Yes, thank you.

[Rick] (37:03 - 37:04) Next point.

[Julie] (37:04 - 37:21) We have these other points to consider. The first one was Christians are redeemed from sin and death, so therefore, Egalitarians would say, the new creation should have a new equality. We're going to take a look at 1 Corinthians 12:14-15, 40-41:

[Jonathan] (37:21 - 38:08) "For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body, it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body... There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.

There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory." We talked about this in Part I. Paul uses an important metaphor.

The church is a body, and each faithful Christian is pictured as a different body part with a different function. God Himself places each member where He wants to, with gifts and roles suited to His purpose.

[Julie] (38:09 - 38:24) So who am I to say, "Well, I should be, (and then insert position here)..." if that's not what the Lord has designed for me? This is really important to consider because it ends up being an issue for a woman of humility.

[Rick] (38:25 - 39:43) That's well stated. That's bravely stated, because there's a lot to this. The "equality" we have in Christ is our foundation.

How God places us within that body is in His plan, in His mighty hands. It's interesting to me that in that Scripture in 1 Corinthians, you had the body of Christ, the hand and the foot, and all of those things, and you know, if I'm not this, then I'm not as good as that... No, no, no, that's not true,... That's the point!

Then it goes to the heavenlies. It says... and it's talking about the glorification of the true church. It says, "...there's in one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars.

Star differs from star in glory." So even in the heavenlies, there is a difference. Now, do you look at that and say, well, I should be a higher star than that other one?

I mean, come on, let's look at this, let's understand the beauty of the grace of God to give us any of these opportunities. You recognize that we don't deserve any of this. It is purely by His grace through His son, Jesus, that we can even have these conversations, that we have all of this before us.

It is a matter of humility, Julie, for all of us. It truly, truly needs to be. All right, Julie, what's the next point?

[Julie] (39:43 - 40:04) We're still on Point 4 with some sub points here. Egalitarian say that Christian women "learning in silence" contradicts every aspect of freedom in Christ. 1 Timothy 2:11 (New Living Translation) says: "Women should learn quietly and submissively." Okay, I don't like that one so much. That doesn't sound so great. I don't know how to defend that.

So go.

[Rick] (40:05 - 40:47) Okay, well, first of all, I agree with you. All right, let's look at what it means. Let's look at what that word means and the various forms of that word, how it's used -- that word for "silence" -- are used in the New Testament.

Here's what it carries. We're going to read two other Scriptures that are not about women. We're going to read two other Scriptures that use that word for "silence."

What we're going to see in all of these Scriptures is that the meaning, the thought carried, is being sober and having reverent behavior. This is NOT silence, and it is NOT derogatory. That's what we need to see.

Let's look at this, Jonathan, 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12:

[Jonathan] (40:47 - 41:05) "And to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need." This is for men and women.

[Rick] (41:05 - 41:39) So let me substitute the word women should learn quietly. Okay, this is saying and make it your ambition to be quiet. It's for men and women.

What is the context of that? Attend to your business. Do what's in front of you, just as you've been commanded.

Live up to the standards of high morality within the world, so you can be a representative of Christ, so that you can be contributory rather than a leech on somebody else's life. It's a standard of reverence and sober behavior. Go ahead, Julie.

[Julie] (41:39 - 41:43) That to "lead a quiet life" is the same word as "learn quietly."

[Rick] (41:43 - 41:49) Yes. Yes. It's the same thing.

Now let's look at another Scripture in Thessalonians using that word again. 2 Thessalonians 3:11-13:

[Jonathan] (41:49 - 42:15) "For we hear that some among you are leading an undisciplined life, doing no work at all, but acting like busybodies. Now such persons we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ to work in quiet fashion and eat their own bread. But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary of doing good." Again, this is for both men and women.

[Rick] (42:16 - 42:50) To work in quiet fashion is to not be a busybody, to not be a rabble rouser, but to have sober and reverent behavior -- men and women. When it says women should learn quietly, it means with sober and reverent behavior. I say, yep, I love that,

and it's for men, as well. Women are NOT to be silenced. They are to be reverent before God, just as men are required to be.

It's the same thing.

[Julie] (42:50 - 43:18) I feel better. Now along these lines, we get a lot of questions about Paul's admonition in 1 Corinthians 14:34 that says, "The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says." Now that is different from what we're talking about here.

So check out this week's CQ Rewind Show Notes, and we'll put a Q&A in the bonus material for this one.

[Rick] (43:18 - 43:28) All right, good, because we want to have that integrity to examine the whole picture. The idea of silence is sober and reverent behavior, as is becoming for all Christians. So Julie, what's the next point?

[Julie] (43:28 - 43:52) The last question is, why keep any woman from using her teaching gift if it's from God? Again, the point here is that in many churches, women already lead much of the ministry. They do children's work and Bible classes and prayer and hospitality and missionary work.

Many congregations would struggle without female leadership. If women already do most of the ministry, just recognize it formally already.

[Rick] (43:53 - 44:26) Well, and the point is that all along throughout this two-part series, we've been recognizing it formally. We're just not putting it in a place where the Scriptures say it doesn't belong. If the principles of Scripture are clear, then each of us, let us use whatever abilities we have to glorify God.

Here's how. Not how I think. According to His word, in His ways, that would be pleasing to Him.

Not my word, my ways, so I feel better. His word, His ways, that would be pleasing to Him.

[Julie] (44:26 - 44:56) Instead of asking why women can't do everything, the better question is: How each of us can use the gifts God has given us in the ways He designed. Many women have strong teaching gifts. The issue is using them within the boundaries God established.

When we honor His order -- just as we saw in the Garden of Eden, honoring His order is so important -- everyone can serve fully and fruitfully and to His glory. That has to be what we all want.

[Rick] (44:56 - 45:27) What you're saying is we have to use what we've been given to show others how to better live a transformed life. We can be the example. See, that's the point.

It doesn't matter man, woman, old, young, you can be an example of what a transformed life looks like. Now, let's look at a Scripture in Titus that many have a hard time with, because it's a very culturally-based Scripture, but it has a powerful spiritual lesson to it. Titus 2:3-5:

[Jonathan] (45:28 - 45:50) "Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored."

[Rick] (45:51 - 46:04) Julie, we could read this Scripture and you can say, well, that means that I can't have a job. I have to be this quiet little person working at home. "Yes, dear. No, dear. Right away, dear..." Right?

I mean, is that kind of how it comes across?

[Julie] (46:04 - 46:07) That's what it sounds like. That does not fit in well with today's culture.

[Rick] (46:08 - 46:33) Nor does it fit in well with its meaning. See, that's the thing we need to understand. Let me take pieces of this.

Older women, those who have experience, those who have lived according to Christ, with your experience, with your wisdom, with your knowledge, with what you have learned and gone through with trials and tribulations. First of all, you're supposed to be reverent in your behavior. That fits in with everything we've talked about.

[Julie] (46:33 - 46:33) No problem.

[Rick] (46:34 - 47:52) Teaching what's good, teaching scripturally valuable things to encourage the young women. Toward what?

Toward being sensible, toward being pure, toward being workers. Now it says at home, but what if you have a job? Then toward being the best worker you can be.

It's to say, take your years, your decades of experience, pour it out into those that are younger and show them what doing these things in a Christlike fashion looks like. If you've done it, you owe it to the younger ones to pour it out to them so they can pick that example up so that the word of God will not be dishonored. You take those high points of this Scripture and you put them in place, and all of a sudden it's not this, well, you have to be quiet and stay at home.

It's this HUGE privilege to put yourself in a position of generationally affecting others. I want to go a little bit further. I want to attach another Scripture to that, because this next Scripture proves that point about living the gospel can influence generations.

I will submit to you that women have a unique opportunity to influence generations in ways men don't. Let's look at 2 Timothy 1:5:

[Jonathan] (47:52 - 48:04) "For I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am sure that it is in you (Timothy) as well."

[Rick] (48:05 - 49:14) Paul's writing to Timothy, and he's saying that I see this powerful faith in you. It first was in your grandmother, and then it was in your mother. So what does that tell us?

It tells us that Lois and Eunice took their faith with profound seriousness and passed it on generation to generation. Because those two women were utterly faithful in passing that on, this young man, Timothy, Paul is writing to. This is in 2 Timothy...

this is Paul's last letter. Paul's going to die soon. He is turning much of his work over to Timothy, and he's saying, because of your grandmother and because of your mother, here's who you are.

I am trusting YOU with my work. Those women were instrumental in building the character of young Timothy, young Timothy, to be able to take that grand responsibility. That's what I mean by looking at that Titus Scripture through different eyes.

Look at the positive, powerful effect you can have. It is mind-blowing how big this can be. Does that make more sense?

[Julie] (49:15 - 49:17) That is one beautiful way that women can teach.

[Rick] (49:18 - 50:04) Absolutely. It's powerful, and it's age-lasting, and it goes on beyond you. I could go on, I could talk to you for hours about what my grandmother taught me as a Christian, as a kid, the things that she taught me, the attitude that she had, the difficulties that she conquered and faced throughout her life, and her life was never easy.

They have stuck with me, and they've helped to make me who I am. That's the power of this generational perspective of using what God has given us. Use it in the places that you can use it.

Let's recognize that God's will is rarely accomplished -- let's wrap this up now -- it's rarely accomplished by using the best or even the brightest.

I say that, by looking in a mirror, okay? All right? 1 Corinthians 1:26-29:

[Jonathan] (50:05 - 50:48) "For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, ... Why?

... so that no man may boast before God." Bloom where God has planted you! Grow in grace and knowledge of His truth, and do things His way with honor, respect, and reverence and

let the blessing He has given to you shine out.

[Rick] (50:49 - 51:10) Let the blessing He has given to you shine out. In other words, let's be receptive to what we have been given in the context of which we live, so that we can play the role that our Father and our Lord Jesus are saying, follow me this way, and be faithful to that, and see what can happen.

[Julie] (51:10 - 52:52) Before we close, I want to share my personal feelings on this topic. In my career, I worked as a vice president in the insurance industry handling multi-million dollar accounts. I led teams.

I gave executive presentations, managed complex risk strategies. When people raise the competency argument that gifted, capable women should naturally step into this pastoral role, I get it. But at the end of the day, I trust that God's design for the church order is wise.

Even under today's modern microscope, it might seem like an ancient relic. I've had to evaluate my role here on the podcast. I study hard.

I contribute to the weekly conversations. Does this conflict with women not teaching in a church setting? Well, no, because this isn't the office that Paul describes.

My role here isn't a loophole. I'm not functioning as an elder or governing a congregation. I'm serving within the authority and privilege and oversight of two male elders.

A female perspective is really important -- over 65% of our audience is female -- and this is one of the ways I can use my gifts faithfully and joyfully within the structure that Scripture gives us.

This is not about what I DON'T get to do. Look at this privilege that I have. There are so many opportunities for service and witnessing about the gospel message!

I want to align with the picture of Christ as the head of the church. Men and women serve together, each according to and honoring God's design. What a privilege!

Find the work that you are to do.

[Rick] (52:52 - 53:36) Julie, I appreciate that very much. Just to add to that, you were invited. You didn't say, hey, I can do this.

It was, why don't you try this? I remember the first time we had that conversation, would you be willing to? And you were like, "Um, no."

But see, the point is that when we put our talents and abilities together in the context of doing it God's way, according to His will and His word, we can come up with something that can actually be a blessing. If we keep it His way, that's where the greatest blessing comes. I appreciate that very much.

Jonathan, let's finish this up, Establishing the Scripture role of women in the true church:

[Jonathan] (53:37 - 54:05) Equality in Christ means we're ALL equally lifted out of sin and death and redeemed. It doesn't change our ethnicity or our social standing or our gender roles. For women to not be able to preach and to therefore be looked at as second-class citizens is a grave error.

Instead, let us ALL rejoice in whatever opportunities our God gives us in accordance with His holy word and run the race together, all as one body!

[Rick] (54:05 - 54:49) Run the race together as one body. If I'm not a hand and I'm a foot, run. If I'm not an eye but I'm an ear, that body can run.

Whatever role we are given according to Scripture, take that role, bring it before the Father and say, Lord, show me what to do with what You've given me in accordance with Your word. Watch, pray, and follow and see how you can be blessed. Think about it.

Folks, we love hearing from our listeners. Welcome your feedback and questions on this episode and other episodes at ChristianQuestions.com. Coming up in our next episode: "Did God Curse the World?"