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[Announcer] (0:00 - 0:18) Think about the Bible like you never have before. You're listening to Christian Questions. Access more audio, videos, and Bible study resources at ChristianQuestions.com.

Our topic is: "What Really Happened to Enoch, Moses and Elijah?" Here's Rick, Jonathan, and Julie.

[Rick] (0:21 - 0:30) Welcome everyone. I'm Rick. I'm joined by Jonathan, my co-host for over twenty-five years. Julie, a longtime contributor, is also with us.

Jonathan, what's our theme scripture for this episode?

[Jonathan] (0:31 - 0:48) Deuteronomy 34:5-6: "So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor;

but no man knows his burial place to this day."

[Rick] (0:49 - 2:00) Reading the Bible can be confusing. After all, it's an ancient book which is a collection of writings by about forty people over a fifteen-hundred-year span that details the plan of God through history, prophecy, parables, laws, observations, life-guidance teachings and so forth. Some of the accounts of the specific individuals featured in the Bible can come across as shrouded in mystery.

Such is the case with the ending of the lives of Enoch, Moses and Elijah. The accounts of the deaths of these three faithful men can bring more questions than answers. What really happened to them?

Was Enoch taken up to be with God? Why was the body of Moses hidden, and why did Satan seem to want it?

Did Elijah really go to heaven in a fiery chariot? There're a lot of interesting questions right here. Let's dig right in.

Let's begin with Moses, which at first glance seems to be the easiest of these three to explain. Let's start with the account of the end of Moses' life and God burying him in an unknown location. Let's go to Deuteronomy 34:4-8:

[Jonathan] (2:00 - 2:46) "Then the LORD said to him, This is the land which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, I will give it to your descendants; I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there. So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.

And he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day. Although Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died, his eye was not dim, nor his vigor abated.

So the sons of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses came to an end."

[Julie] (2:46 - 3:27) So if Moses simply died, then what's the big deal? Well, the big deal is there's a scripture in Jude that brings us a very unusual perspective regarding Moses' body. Jude 1:8-9: "Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.

But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke you!" Okay, so this is an odd peek into the spirit world. Why are the Archangel and Satan arguing over Moses' body?

[Rick] (3:27 - 4:16) That's a really good question. It's a really good question. In this argument, Michael the Archangel, it says he "did not dare pronounce...a railing judgment."

He did not dare vilify Satan--make the decision to vilify him-- but he said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Let God Himself censure or admonish you.

Michael the Archangel did not even consider casting some vilifying judgment over Satan. That's really fascinating to me. He instead left that censuring or forbidding up to God Himself.

I think this is a really important principle. This principle actually comes up in a few other scriptures. One or two we'll touch on a little bit later on, but you have this really interesting, odd argument in heaven over the body of Moses.

[Julie] (4:17 - 4:20) Why did this argument take place in the spirit realm?

[Rick] (4:21 - 4:53) Honestly, we don't know for sure, because we're not directly told what this was all about. Let's put forward some ideas that are based on scripture. There's a little bit of, "here's our best thinking on the matter" here.

We don't have a real "thus saith the Lord." We want to be clear on that. We know that Moses was dead.

Let's start at the beginning. Okay, he's dead, which meant that he had ceased to exist. We need to establish that very clearly.

Let's take a moment and define being dead. Jonathan, Genesis 2:16-17:

[Jonathan] (4:54 - 5:07) "The LORD God commanded the man, saying, From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

[Rick] (5:07 - 5:24) All right, that's a pretty straightforward, clear command of God. In the day that you eat of it, the actual Hebrew says, "dying thou shalt die." That's a basis; that's where it starts.

Let's look at another text. Let's go to Ecclesiastes 9:10:

[Julie] (5:24 - 5:34) "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (which is the grave) where you are going."

[Rick] (5:34 - 5:46) Again, a very straightforward, clear statement. Death means lack of life. That's really what it's saying.

A couple more scriptures; let's go to Romans 6:23:

[Jonathan] (5:46 - 5:53) "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

[Rick] (5:53 - 6:14) The wages of sin is not torment or anything else, it's death. The opposite of that is the free gift of God. We're establishing a scriptural pattern to define...when we say Moses was dead and buried, we're defining what actually happened.

One more scripture; Julie, let's go to 1 Corinthians 15:20-22:

[Julie] (6:14 - 6:28) "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

[Jonathan] (6:29 - 6:32) Basically, death is the absence of life.

[Rick] (6:33 - 6:46) That's what these Scriptures and several others tell us. We've got this set up, we understand Moses was dead, not alive in any way, shape, manner, or form and buried.

[Julie] (6:46 - 6:52) Let me ask this another way; what did Satan want with the dead body of Moses?

[Rick] (6:52 - 7:00) You are insisting on an answer, and you will get one to the best of our ability, because we don't have that scriptural, "Thus saith the Lord." Perhaps...

[Jonathan] (7:01 - 7:24) Perhaps, yeah, really... Perhaps Satan wanted to reveal Moses' body so the Hebrews could carry it with them into the Promised Land as a remembrance of their great leader. If this were the case, what a sly maneuver it would have been to get the people to subtly lean into idolatry by worshipping Moses' body.

[Julie] (7:24 - 7:38) That makes a lot of sense because after all, Moses was the bridge between slavery and freedom for millions of people. He was a hero of heroes, and we know the people's propensity for idol worship from that golden calf experience.

[Rick] (7:38 - 8:33) That's an interesting position to look at and say, okay, they've got this background and that background--the idolatrous background--for generations. You can tell that it was just there. Perhaps this is what's happening here, because Moses was a hero of heroes.

He was the deliverer after generations of slavery. It's really remarkable. The other important thing to understand and to remember is respect for the dead and the remains was a very important part of ancient Hebrew culture. Proper burial held a high priority.

When they didn't know where the body of Moses was, it was difficult. It was difficult because they didn't do the things they normally would have done. Remember what happened many years earlier when Joseph died.

Now Joseph dies at the beginning of the Hebrews coming into Egypt, so this is a long time before. Here's what happened when he died. Let's look at Genesis 50:24-26:

[Jonathan] (8:34 - 8:37) "Joseph said to his brothers, I am about to die, but God will surely take care of you and bring you up from this land to the land which He promised on oath to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob. Then Joseph made the sons of Israel swear, saying, God will surely take care of you, and you shall carry my bones up from here. So Joseph died at the age of one hundred and ten years; and he was embalmed and placed in a coffin in Egypt."

[Rick] (9:07 - 9:19) Joseph says, when you are delivered--whenever that is--take my remains with you. Once they get to the promised land, here's what happens. Joshua 24:32:

[Jonathan] (9:19 - 9:37) "Now they buried the bones of Joseph, which the sons of Israel brought up from Egypt, at Shechem, in the piece of ground which Jacob had bought from the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for one hundred pieces of money; and they became the inheritance of Joseph's sons."

[Rick] (9:37 - 9:46) The importance of that burial was very, very, very vivid and Joseph's bones were taken with respect to the Promised Land.

[Julie] (9:47 - 9:54) Then why would this be a reason why Moses' body wouldn't be returned to them? They would have treated it respectfully. Is this a trial for them?

[Rick] (9:54 - 10:28) I think that part of it was that. Remember, God said to Moses you shall not enter the Promised Land, because remember, he did disobey. I think God is honoring, literally, you shall not enter the Promised Land. The sense of potential idolatry, I think, really, really grew because they didn't have the body. If Satan could wrestle it from God's hiding it, that could have been a really, really devastating thing for them.

It's an interesting scenario to look at this. Let's just look at Living and Dying by the Grace of God:

[Jonathan] (10:29 - 10:46) With the evidence we have seen thus far, it's clear that Moses died and was buried in a secret location of God's own choosing. Let us reverence what God did in this experience and recognize how His decision was for the ultimate good of His people.

[Julie] (10:47 - 11:12) But what about how Moses, remember he later appears in the Mount of Transfiguration account in Matthew, Mark and Luke? Some Bible commentaries like Jameison, Fausset and Brown bring up the idea that Moses and Elijah were physically there in the Mount, in their bodies. Do you think God was trying to preserve the body of Moses so that He could raise it up later with Jesus and Elijah?

Was Satan trying to prevent that from happening?

[Rick] (11:12 - 11:40) All right, now that's an interesting question. What that question means is we need more context. We've looked at the burial of Moses, we've got a start, but we've got a lot more to go into, a lot more here to cover as we go through this. Just when it looked like things would be easy, Julie, let's remember...

JULIE: Sorry!

RICK: ...all Bible details are harmonious.

We just need to uncover that harmony.

[Jonathan] (11:40 - 11:47) Let's move to the account of Elijah. What REALLY happened to him at the end of his ministry with the chariot of fire?

[Rick] (11:47 - 12:19) On to Elijah. Establishing what happened to Elijah when he turned his work over to Elisha is a really important starting point. When we look at the scriptures that define this particular experience, two things become evident.

First, what happened was miraculous, unequivocally. Second, it's very easy to draw conclusions based on that miracle that may not be sound with actual biblical principles. We've got to be careful as we unfold this.

[Julie] (12:19 - 12:23) Let me just start out with my main question: Did Elijah go to heaven to be with God?

[Jonathan] (12:24 - 12:24) No!

[Julie] (12:25 - 12:31) Okay, why would we say that? Because don't we all remember the account of him being taken up to heaven in a chariot?

[Rick] (12:32 - 12:52) We remember the account, but let's carefully examine the account before we say what's in the account, because there're a lot of potential misconceptions here. First, regarding where Elijah went--and this is an important beginning-- let's go to 2 Kings 2:1:

[Jonathan] (12:52 - 13:00) "And it came about when the LORD was about to take up Elijah by a whirlwind to heaven, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal."

[Julie] (13:00 - 13:27) This really was a surprise to me, that "heaven" has a lot of different meanings. He was taken by a whirlwind to heaven. Scripturally, this Hebrew word for "heaven" often just means the physical sky.

It's our atmosphere that produces weather. It's the context that can broaden it to mean further out, our visible universe of stars, or it can be the theological description of where God resides. We tend to think of that in every case, but that's not what this word means.

[Rick] (13:28 - 13:47) That's a really, really powerfully important point. Let's look at a few other uses of this word to demonstrate the variance in understanding. Let's go to Genesis 1:9, and when we go to this scripture, these are the first times the word "heaven" is introduced, and I think that's an important baseline for us.

[Jonathan] (13:56 - 14:05) "Then God said, Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear; and it was so." "Below the heavens" is translated from this same Hebrew word used here to mean the sky, the air above us.

[Rick] (14:06 - 14:07) That's Genesis 1:9. Let's go a few verses later in Genesis 1:26:

[Jonathan] (14:07 - 14:11) "Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

"Of the sky" is translated from the same Hebrew word, here meaning the same atmospheric realm; the space of birds.

[Julie] (14:36 - 15:11) Let's pull that out just a little bit, because one more example in Genesis 22:17 says: "Indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies."

"Stars of the heavens" here refers to our visible universe of stars from our perspective on earth, the wider cosmos, but it could also be used metaphorically to indicate eternity and divine order. Ecclesiastes 3:1 says: "There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens."

[Rick] (15:12 - 16:04) This is a simple word that's got a lot of complex meanings. We really have to see it in the context that it belongs, and that's the important part of taking these few minutes here. We know God is called the God of heaven, like you just said, a meaning which does indicate something higher than, further out than, our atmosphere.

I mean, God's throne is in heaven. That's what it says in Psalms 11:4, and we know it's not in our atmosphere. We know it's not amongst the stars.

It's in this lofty place way outside of those things. Now, in spite of that, in spite of the fact that God's home is way beyond, we firmly believe that Elijah was taken up into the air and not into God's heavenly home. He didn't go to heaven.

When we say heaven and we think of God's home, no, we don't believe that's where he went. Why?

[Jonathan] (16:05 - 16:23) Because Jesus told us in John 3:12-13: "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."

[Julie] (16:23 - 16:39) Okay, you're reading from John. That's the word "heaven."

We've switched from Hebrew to Greek. The Greek term in the New Testament is essentially the direct continuation of the Hebrew idea that heaven can mean the physical sky where birds are, it can mean the starry heavens or the spiritual dwelling place of God.

[Jonathan] (16:40 - 17:09) Colossians 1:16 tells us that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation. Now let's read verse 18: "He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself will come to have first place in everything."

Jesus is the first person to be resurrected from the dead, making it clear proof that no human was resurrected before him.

[Rick] (17:09 - 17:27) ... including Elijah. We need to understand that when Jesus says no man has ascended up to heaven, he means it. When it says about him, he was the first one to go to heaven, it means it.

We can't put Elijah someplace that the Scriptures don't allow him to go.

[Julie] (17:28 - 17:32) Let's get to the account. What about the chariot and where did Elijah go?

[Rick] (17:33 - 17:43) Okay. If he didn't go to be with God, where did he go? What about this chariot thing?

Let's look at the Scriptures. Let's go back to 2 Kings 2:11-12:

[Jonathan] (17:44 - 18:10) "As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven. Elisha saw it and cried out, My father, my father, the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!

And he saw Elijah no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and tore them in two pieces."

[Julie] (18:10 - 18:33) It's good that we read this because I always pictured in my head this fiery chariot and these horses going up, taking Elijah away. Why am I getting that thought? Well, because I think some of the more famous art pieces I've seen show it this way for dramatic visual impact, but it sounds like this chariot is in between them and it's the wind that carries Elijah away.

[Rick] (18:33 - 19:29) Because that's exactly the way the verse reads. It says the chariot separated them and he's taken by a whirlwind. He's not taken by the chariot.

Read the verse and accept the verse as read. That's a really important principle here. What's with the chariot?

It's hard to say. This whole thing is a miracle. Perhaps you have this incredible wind, this whirlwind--this powerful, powerful wind--and this chariot of fire comes between Elijah and Elisha to protect Elisha.

The scripture doesn't tell us that. It's just an assumption that we're making to say that's the role that it played to show Elisha that a) he's protected; b) he had just been given Elijah's mantle, so he now has the authority of Elijah;

and c) that Elijah was going away. He was going away and there was this separation that could not be breached.

[Julie] (19:30 - 19:39) I picture it kind of like a tornado, this windstorm. If Elijah didn't go to the heavenly realm where God is, where did he go? How do we know?

[Rick] (19:40 - 19:43) Okay, where did he go then if he didn't go up to heaven to be with God?

[Julie] (19:44 - 19:44) Right.

[Rick] (19:44 - 20:56) Okay, based on scriptural principle, there's really only two optional answers here:

First, he died. That could have been the end of his life. Very, very likely could have been the end of his life.

His work was done and in a similar way to Moses, God removed him. Second, we could say that maybe he lived and was simply being taken out of service as the mighty prophet that he had been. Maybe his time for working essentially as that spokesperson was over.

We're going to consider that second option for a very specific reason, and it's kind of fascinating to look at this next piece of scripture. As we go through these next scriptures, the important point to recognize is that it's really hard to tell which one of these is true. That's why we're saying let's look at them and say, here's what the Scriptures say and let's understand--remember what we absolutely know is true and what is not true--and then let's look at the rest. Let's look at the next set of scriptures.

King Jehoram of Israel received a letter from the prophet Elijah several years after he was taken off the scene--after he's taken by this whirlwind. The letter indicated that the king would be punished severely for his sins. Let's look at that; 2 Chronicles 21:11-14.

[Julie] (20:56 - 21:31) I'll sum up the first part. King Jehoram built idolatrous worship sites in the mountains of Judah, and he caused the people of Jerusalem and Judah to turn to false gods. That was one of the accusations.

He also murdered his brothers. Not a good guy. In verse 12, it says he receives this letter from Elijah the prophet who pronounces judgment upon him from the Lord.

Then verse 14 says: "...behold, the LORD is going to strike your people, your sons, your wives and all your possessions with a great calamity..." That, of course, foretold his downfall and eventual painful death.

[Jonathan] (21:32 - 22:12) As usual, what Elijah said was what happened. 2 Chronicles 21:20: "He was thirty-two years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years; and he departed with no one’s regret,

and they buried him in the city of David, but not in the tombs of the kings." Now, here's the controversy. In 2 Kings 2, Elijah is taken up in a whirlwind.

In 2 Chronicles 21, years later, King Jehoram of Judah receives a letter "from Elijah." How could Elijah send a letter if he's already gone?

[Julie] (22:12 - 22:24) There are at least four possible explanations. We will get into all of them in the CQ Rewind Show Notes this week. They're very interesting, and it's definitely worth reading.

[Rick] (22:24 - 23:01) The answer is, we don't know if Elijah was actually just taken off the scene, or if his life was taken. We don't know. What we do know is where he didn't go, and how he didn't get there.

We know he didn't go on a chariot, and we know he didn't go to be with God. It's really important to see those clear perspectives of Scripture lining up as we try to solve the difficulties and the mysteries around the situation with Elijah. Once again, Living and Dying by the Grace of God:

[Jonathan] (23:01 - 23:21) Whether Elijah died when he was taken by the whirlwind or he was simply removed from his responsibility as a major prophet is really immaterial. No matter which details are accurate, we again see how a faithful man of God was treated by God with honor and respect after his mission was ended.

[Rick] (23:22 - 23:42) Leave it up to God. Just don't read into the details things which don't belong according to Scripture. The similarities between Moses and Elijah are marked with a certain level of mystery still, even though we've got the scriptures in front of us.

The bottom line is, God's got it all in His control!

[Jonathan] (23:42 - 23:50) So, what about the Mount of Transfiguration? Doesn't that event change our conclusions about both of these godly men?

[Rick] (23:50 - 24:25) Guys with the questions, man! These are good, good questions. The Mount of Transfiguration event was one of truly great significance.

It was so unique and so important that, as we shall see, Jesus told Peter, James and John to not speak about it until after he himself had risen from the dead. Clearly the importance of this vision was to be received by Jesus' followers after they were given God's spirit so it could help them comprehend. This is a big deal, this Mount of Transfiguration.

[Julie] (24:26 - 24:41) In episode #1369 called: "What Really Happened on the Mount of Transfiguration?" we went into all the interesting details about this account. We're not going to go into these here. Go ahead and listen to #1369, and we'll move on here.

[Rick] (24:41 - 25:11) What we're going to do here, though, is we're going to read through the accounts of the Mount of Transfiguration. It's recorded in Matthew 17:1-13, in Mark 9:2-13 and in Luke 9:28-36. What we're going to do is read a combination of those three Gospels by trying to take the details of each Gospel and put them in.

We're not going to tell you which Gospel we're reading from. You can see that in the Rewind to be able to understand what's happening. Jonathan, let's get started with looking at the events of that day.

[Jonathan] (25:12 - 25:37) "And some eight days after these sayings, it came about that he took along Peter and John and James, and went up to the mountain to pray. And while he was praying, he was transfigured before them; the appearance of his face became different, and his face shone like the sun, and his garments became radiant and exceedingly white, as no launderer on earth can whiten them."

JULIE:

I love the Greek word for "transfigured" here because it's fun to say; "metamorphoo."

"Meta" means change and "morpho" or "morphoo" is the form or the shape. This Greek root is where we get our English word “metamorphosis,” meaning to change or transform. In this Transfiguration scene, Jesus was still Jesus, but he transformed into a glorious representation of who he is.

[Rick] (26:04 - 26:19) The only other uses of this particular word are speaking of an earthly to a spiritual transformation. It's mentioned in 2 Corinthians 3:18, and also in a scripture that many of us are very, very, very familiar with, Romans 12:2:

[Jonathan] (26:19 - 26:30) "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

[Julie] (26:30 - 26:47) Our own transformation here in Romans 12 means the transformation of a human being into the likeness of Christ as a result of God's spirit working within us. It changes us from conforming to earthly desires to wanting to be like Jesus, a metamorphosis.

[Rick] (26:47 - 27:07) Let's also recognize that in this Mount of Transfiguration, it specifically says that Jesus was transformed. Okay, now we're going to be introduced to Elijah and Moses momentarily, but it doesn't say that they were. I think that's an important little detail just to kind of put out there.

Jonathan, let's continue with the account:

[Jonathan] (27:08 - 27:44) "And Elijah appeared to them along with Moses; and they were talking with Jesus who, appearing in glory, was speaking of his departure which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem. Now Peter and his companions had been overcome with sleep; but when they were fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him. And it came about, as these were parting from him, Peter said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for you, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah."

[Rick] (27:44 - 28:21) When you hear that, you're thinking, that's pretty vivid. I mean, "let us make three tabernacles—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah." As this account unfolds, what we're seeing is the Apostles were waking out of sleepiness, and they're seeing Elijah, Moses and Jesus there.

The legacy of Moses and Elijah appear, and they are these incredible representations of God's plan working through Jesus. It's interesting that they saw them with Jesus, and Jesus ends up being the centerpiece of this whole thing. Let's continue:

[Jonathan] (28:22 - 28:47) "For he (Peter) did not know what to answer; for they became terrified. And while he was saying this, a cloud formed and began to overshadow them; and they were afraid as they entered the cloud. And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is My son, My Chosen One; listen to him!

And when the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were much afraid."

[Julie] (28:48 - 29:00) Again, we went into the details in the other episode that I mentioned earlier, but here we have two legendary historical figures in Moses and Elijah, but all the focus is on Jesus.

[Rick] (29:00 - 29:59) It's interesting. You've got the mystery surrounding the end of Moses' life and the mystery surrounding the end of Elijah's life and how that ended and what happened there; and here they are.

These are two very significant individuals, this heavenly proclamation, and also, on top of that, you have this voice from heaven that says, "This is My son, My Chosen One, listen to him!" This proclamation seems to have been the only audible testimony here, and unequivocally focuses all of the attention on Jesus as THE single centerpiece of God's glorious plans.

Witnessing such glory and hearing such a powerful proclamation, it was too much for them. It was a scary thing; they didn't know what to do, they were completely blown away by what's happening before them, and they just don't know how to handle it. It's overwhelming in this unfolding here. Jonathan, let's continue:

[Jonathan] (29:59 - 30:27) "And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, Arise, and do not be afraid. And lifting up their eyes, they saw no one, except Jesus himself alone.

And as they were coming down from the mountain, he gave them orders not to relate to anyone what they had seen, until the Son of Man should rise from the dead. And they seized upon that statement, discussing with one another what rising from the dead might mean."

[Julie] (30:27 - 30:46) Were the literal Moses and Elijah really there, like some of the Bible commentaries like Jameison, Fausset and Brown allude to? Were they either raised from the dead or pulled out of heaven? I think we've already discussed they weren't pulled out of heaven; no one was in heaven before Jesus.

So were they raised from the dead?

[Jonathan] (30:47 - 31:23) No, this was a vision. How do we know? Jesus said so.

Matthew 17:9: "As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead." This word for "vision" is used twelve times in the New Testament.

In every instance, it describes something supernatural from God to relay a message. A vision is like a dream and can seem so real. You can dream of someone who died, but in a dream, it feels like they're right there.

[Rick] (31:24 - 33:08) The reality of a vision or a dream really can be...you look at it and say, wait, wait, I think this is happening. Just a quick side story. My wife and I have been married for a long time, forty-five years.

In the early years, I was still working on building the house--and all the stuff--that we live in. Her closet in our bedroom didn't have closet doors yet, but it had this three shelf thing on the inside of the closet.

You say, why are you talking about the closet? Well, let me tell you; because she had this recurring dream about on the three shelves of the closet, and she'd wake up at night and see this in her dream. There are little men on each shelf running little sawmills, sawing wood.

She would tell me about this dream. I say, oh, stop. One night she grabs my arm and she sits up and says, look, there they are.

Do you see them? Do you see them? I mean, she's squeezing my arm and she says, do you see them?

There they are. And they don't look very friendly. So I just started to laugh.

She finally woke up, but the reality of the dream was so overwhelming. She woke me up to say, I'm going to prove to him that they're really there. When you have a vision, kind of going back to that, putting it in perspective, the reality is overwhelming sometimes.

When God gives you a vision, let me tell you, the reality has got to be above and beyond anything you've ever experienced! Let's understand, this is a vision with people that had already died. You say, how come He chooses people that already died?

Weren't they really there? The answer is, this is not the only vision in Scripture that gives a representation of someone who'd already died. Let's look at a completely removed circumstance.

Let's go to Zechariah 3:1-3:

[Julie] (33:09 - 33:31) "Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing on his right hand to accuse him. The LORD said to Satan, The LORD rebuke you, Satan! Indeed, the LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you!

Is this not a brand plucked from the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments and standing before the angel."

[Rick] (33:31 - 34:13) First of all, you've got this heavenly thing with Satan and you hear this rebuking thing going on. Doesn't that sound similar to what we discussed before with Michael and Satan arguing over the body of Moses? Here you've got Joshua in this vision and God rebuking Satan over Joshua.

Now the word for "rebuke" here is the equivalent of the Greek word used in that Michael scripture where Michael and Satan were arguing over the body of Moses. There's a great similarity, but it's a vision. Nobody--nobody--says that Joshua had been risen from the dead.

Everybody knew this was a vision given to Zechariah. Here's what happened to Joshua. Joshua 24:29-30:

[Julie] (34:13 - 34:26) " It came about after these things that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being one hundred and ten years old. And they buried him in the territory of his inheritance." Before the Zechariah <text>, he was already dead.

[Rick] (34:27 - 35:02) Yeah, you're talking generations and generations and generations before Zechariah; dead and buried. It's a vision. To have the credibility of another scripture showing you somebody who had previously died helps to put the Mount of Transfiguration into its appropriate perspective.

The Mount of Transfiguration vision was to show the disciples a snapshot of the glory of God's kingdom. It in no way supported the idea that Moses and Elijah were risen beings. There was no scriptural support for that whatsoever.

Three main points on this Mount of Transfiguration:

[Jonathan] (35:03 - 35:13) Moses representing the design of deliverance of God and His Law- Moses delivered the people and then the Law, that Jesus would later fulfill to pay the ransom sacrifice.

[Julie] (35:14 - 35:32) Elijah representing the support of this deliverance--those who stood for and spoke for God's way, the prophets of old like Elijah himself; and those who paved the way for the Messiah like John the Baptist and the true church, both of whom Elijah symbolically represents in other places.

[Rick] (35:32 - 35:57) You've got Moses representing, Elijah representing, and then you've got Jesus. Jesus was deliverance. That was the reason for the vision.

He's the centerpiece of God's plan. He's the ransom for all. All that God put before him was to testify of him.

That's why we have this vision. Once again, Living and Dying by the Grace of God:

[Jonathan] (35:58 - 36:24) It is revealing that both Moses and Elijah had secrecy surrounding the end of their lives of service and yet these two men of faith were incredible representations of what their lives meant in the Mount of Transfiguration vision. It is as if God is saying that their personal lives were reverential and direct links to the Messiah who would deliver all mankind.

[Julie] (36:25 - 36:30) They were the Law and the prophets. It's all about their connection to Messiah as the Deliverer.

[Rick] (36:31 - 36:52) We can see that the Mount of Transfiguration fits very well into the overall account of living and dying and the mysteries that God allows us to see in Scripture. Moses and Elijah were truly great servants of God whose lives right down to the ending of their contributions showed us what faith and obedience actually look like.

[Jonathan] (36:52 - 36:59) We've examined the reality of the deaths of Moses and Elijah and have learned some powerful lessons. What about Enoch?

[Rick] (37:00 - 37:26) The most dramatic difference with Enoch is how little we know about him. Moses' life is reflected in several Old Testament books and Elijah's life covers many, many chapters. When it comes to Enoch, we have very few scriptures to rely upon.

However, examining these few scriptures reveals his amazing life. We now need to determine what happened to him when "God took him."

[Julie] (37:26 - 37:43) Again, we had a great episode on this recently, Episode #1410, called "Why is the Book of Enoch Not in the Bible?" In there, we examined the Book of Enoch in relation to the canon of Scripture. We're not going to go into that right now.

We're just going to go into what happened.

[Rick] (37:44 - 37:55) There's really only three main verses in Scripture about Enoch in the entire Bible. First one--Enoch was the seventh generation from Adam. It gives the genealogy essentially.

Let's look at Genesis 5:21-24:

[Jonathan] (37:56 - 38:17) "Enoch lived sixty-five years, and became the father of Methuselah. Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.

Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."

[Julie] (38:17 - 38:40) He walks with God, then he's not. God took him. That's an unusual description. Again I ask, where did he go?

The Old Testament word for "took" is used over nine hundred times in the Old Testament alone. It has a very general meaning, so we couldn't use that to authentically build a dramatic meaning into such a common word.

We're going to need more scriptural support.

[Rick] (38:41 - 38:50) Yeah. First of all, let's establish the generality of this word "took." "God took him."

Let's look at just two other scriptures. First, Genesis 2:23:

[Jonathan] (38:51 - 39:00) "And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

[Rick] (39:00 - 39:09) She was taken. She was taken from one place to another, taken from me to becoming woman. Then you have Job 1:21:

[Jonathan] (39:09 - 39:20) "And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."

[Rick] (39:21 - 39:53) The Lord gives life. The Lord takes life. "Blessed be the name of the Lord."

You can see there's a very general usage of the word. You can't draw anything, like you said, Julie, anything dramatic here. We've got the genealogy that says, and "God took him."

That kind of says, okay, there's the potential for a mystery here. What are we supposed to do with it? The second revealing of Enoch in Scripture comes in the New Testament, and it shows that Enoch pleased God by faith.

That's in the book of Hebrews. Let's look at Hebrews 11:5:

[Julie] (39:53 - 40:30) "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP (that's the quote from Genesis 5:24 we just read); for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God."

The King James Version says he was "translated," meaning "moved from one place to another." The New American Standard Version I just read from says "taken up." However, because the word "up" was not in the original Greek, we know that it was supplied by the translator.

It's a little deceptive by having it read "taken up."

[Rick] (40:31 - 40:53) That's an important point. We've got to be careful when we start to supply words to fit a preconceived idea. We don't want to mess with what the Scriptures are actually saying.

What we know is, "God took him." His body was not found. We also know that we know that he could not have gone to heaven.

Why? John 3:13:

[Jonathan] (40:53 - 41:32) "No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven: the Son of Man." Again, this is how we know Enoch, Moses and Elijah, and anyone else who died before Jesus, were not taken up to heaven, meaning the abode of God.

Another verse to describe what death is; 2 Peter 3:4: "And saying, where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." This shows that Moses, Elijah and Enoch are still asleep in death.

[Rick] (41:32 - 42:02) Right. They are the fathers. It just gives us a sense of that's what happened.

That's where they are. We need to leave them there. We don't have permission to move or change something if the Scriptures don't give us that opening.

Now, we're not going to go into this, but the third mention of Enoch in Scripture is in Jude 1:14-15, because Enoch is warning of judgment and Jude is quoting that. It has nothing to do with trying to figure out this "translated" thing. Let's get back to the issue at hand.

[Julie] (42:02 - 42:27) What is Enoch being taken by God? Not taken up, but taken by God. What does that really mean?

Again, the King James version uses "translated." Let me read Hebrews 11:5 from the King James: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:

for before his translation, he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

[Jonathan] (42:27 - 42:40) The word for "translated" or "take" means "to transfer, change, or remove; to cause a change of place or condition; to transfer from one state to another."

[Rick] (42:40 - 43:08) It's just a very simply stated word, and it's interesting that it's not used very often in the New Testament. There's like six times it's used. Let's look at one other use to just help establish the point of this translation. Let me say that using the word "translate" versus "taken" or "transferred" gives it kind of mystery that really doesn't belong.

I just want to put that out there, okay? Let's look at Galatians 1:6:

[Jonathan] (43:09 - 43:16) "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel..."

[Rick] (43:17 - 44:00) That "ye are...removed," that you've been taken from being in the gospel to some place--some other state of being--some other place where you're now in danger. It's a transferal, okay? There's nothing mysterious.

It's a transferal. Now in the Hebrews 11:5, it uses the word "translated" twice. Then it says before his "translation" he had this testimony. That word "translation" is the same word just in a slightly different form in that verse. Here's the thing;

that word means "transferal," and we're saying it again and again to make the point. Hebrews 12:27 has another example of that use of that word for "transferal":

[Jonathan] (44:00 - 44:12) " And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain."

[Rick] (44:12 - 45:01) Removing, okay? It's a simple thing. There's nothing really, really dramatic.

It's interesting to me that getting a little bit deeper into this, when you look at the root words that go into this word for "translated" and "transferred" and so forth, the root word actually means...part of the root word means "to place in the widest application, literally and figuratively, properly in a passive or horizontal posture." Thus very different from another word which denotes an upright active position. This transferal kind of alludes to it's incredibly passive.

Enoch was taken by God passively, and we believe that it means he was taken in death. There was no activity on his part. He was taken in death.

[Julie] (45:02 - 45:06) Well, the fact that you said "horizontally" also makes you think of a dead person.

[Rick] (45:07 - 45:07) Yes.

[Julie] (45:07 - 45:08) Yeah, not upright.

[Rick] (45:08 - 45:17) Right, right. Now let's go back to Hebrews 11:5 one more time and just expand this because there's another part of this I think that really verifies it.

[Julie] (45:17 - 45:29) King James: "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death." The word "see" in this verse means not eyeballs, but to perceive, to clearly discern.

[Rick] (45:30 - 45:43) This word "see" in Hebrews 11:5 is a word that actually means "perceive." Sometimes those words are used interchangeably, and they shouldn't be because there is a different level of meaning between them.

[Jonathan] (45:44 - 45:56) God took Enoch's life at a "young" age compared to his peers. He was 365 years old, but compare that to Adam and Methuselah. He was very young.

[Rick] (45:57 - 46:01) He's like in his thirties and everybody else is living into their nineties. That's what it would be like.

[Julie] (46:01 - 46:04) You wouldn't have expected him to die that 'early," as we would say.

[Rick] (46:04 - 46:46) He wouldn't have perceived what was happening. That helps us to put this in order, okay? Let's go to another New Testament example of these words because it's important that this word for "perceive" is used in this verse.

After speaking the parable of the sower, Jesus, his disciples asked him why he taught him parables. His answer was based on Isaiah 6:9-10. Jesus used this prophecy to teach us about "seeing" and "perceiving."

Now remember, "seeing" and "perceiving," those are the two words. "Seeing," like you said, Julie, with the eyeballs; "perceiving" with getting the meaning. Let's just quote one little part of that to illustrate how this word is used in other scriptures. Matthew 13:14:

[Jonathan] (46:46 - 46:58) "In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;"

[Rick] (46:59 - 47:19) You'll keep on seeing with your eyes, but you will not perceive--understand, comprehend--what's happening. In the verse in Hebrews, it says he did not "see" death. He did not perceive it.

That's what it meant. He didn't understand it. He didn't see it and grasp it, rather than just see it with his eyes.

[Jonathan] (47:20 - 47:28) "See," "seeing," and "saw" means to look at literally and figuratively. That's the eyeballs. What's the other one?

[Julie] (47:28 - 47:39) Here in Matthew, that was the eyeballs. The other one was the discernment, but it says you will keep on "seeing"--eyeballs; but will not "perceive"--mind. Got it.

[Rick] (47:39 - 47:39) Right, right.

[Julie] (47:40 - 47:42) "See" is not always "see." "See" is sometimes "perceive."

[Rick] (47:42 - 48:46) Right. We want to get that sometimes the Scriptures use the word "see" where it actually means "perceive." It's really important to understand that subtlety.

Jesus in this parable is teaching us the basic lessons of seeing and then elevating ourselves to perceiving. Enoch did not perceive death coming. It says he didn't see it.

It means he didn't perceive it coming, and that's why we think that perhaps he was taken in his sleep. It just happened, and it was not something he was aware of. This reminds us of the experience of Moses, who was seemingly the picture of health.

Remember when you read those verses earlier in the episode, it says his eyes were vibrant and he had energy, but then he's buried. Perhaps it was death in sleep out of respect, and then God took care of it from there. You've got a kind of a similarity here, but Enoch didn't get "taken up."

That's not what the scripture says. He was taken--taken from life and brought into death. That's where we are here.

Let's try to put this all together now. Once again, Living and Dying by the Grace of God:

[Julie] (48:47 - 49:18) Moses, Elijah and Enoch all had powerful faith and obedience when it came to following God's will. These three men shared a unique mystery in the ending of their service to God. Not knowing exactly all the details of their singular experiences helps us remember that God is sovereign.

What He does and how He does it is always for the purpose of the eternal good of His plan. Let us rejoice on what we do know as God's plan goes grandly forward!

[Rick] (49:19 - 50:16) It's really important as we look at a subject like this to recognize the propensity of human nature to want to build drama where really there shouldn't be. We want to respect and reverence the way the Scriptures are written to show us the lives of these incredibly faithful individuals and not mess up the reverential approach and understanding and appreciation of who they were, what they stood for, and how God actually treated them in the context of the whole plan. Life is life in the plan.

Death is death. Jesus died so that all who died can raise to life. Enoch, Moses and Elijah were not exceptions to that rule.

Think about it. Folks, we love hearing from our listeners. We welcome your feedback and questions on this episode and other episodes at ChristianQuestions.com.

Coming up in our next episode: "Did Jesus Die for Every Single Human Being?"

Final Notes: copyright @2025 Christian Questions. In addition to this transcript, we provide comprehensive CQ Rewind Show Notes for every episode. They include every scripture quoted during the podcast, as well as graphics, illustrations and bonus material. Click the "CQ Rewind Show Notes" button near the audio player or sign up to receive these weekly at ChristianQuestions.com. This transcript was created using artificial intelligence. While we believe it to be accurate, we apologize for any errors that may exist