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Our topic is: "Do I Have an Immortal Soul?" (Part II). Here's Rick and Julie.
[Rick] (0:20 - 0:28) Welcome, everyone. I'm Rick. I'm joined by Julie, a long-time contributor.
Julie, what's our theme scripture for this episode?
[Julie] (0:28 - 0:35) Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
[Rick] (0:36 - 1:14) In our last episode, we examined how the Old Testament defines the human soul. In that discussion, we saw clear scriptural evidence defining the soul as life on a mortal level. The same word for "soul" or "life" was consistently used to describe both animals and humans.
Now, as we proceed with the second part of our series, we will now focus on the New Testament. The big questions here are simple: Did Jesus teach us that human souls are mortal in the same way we concluded the Old Testament taught?
Did he in some way elevate and change that conclusion? Those are the questions.
[Julie] (1:14 - 1:45) Okay. Many people have been taught that humans are born with this little divine spark inside of them, and that spark can't die, never ceases to exist. They call that spark your "soul" or your "spirit."
We know that God formed man from the dust of the ground, breathed into him the breath of life, so he was a living creature, a soul, a sentient being. We found in the Old Testament NO evidence of this "immortal spark" in our previous episode. What's the best place to start here in the New Testament?
[Rick] (1:45 - 2:06) Let's start in the New Testament with Jesus quoting an Old Testament verse about the soul so we can clearly see how he quotes the verse and how it will line up in the Greek text of the New Testament. Julie, let's start with Jesus' words, Matthew 22:36-37:
[Julie] (2:06 - 3:08) "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law? And he (Jesus) said to him, (and here he quotes from the Old Testament, Deuteronomy 6:5) YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND."
This lineup that you said, where you lined up the Old Testament and New, is a really helpful idea for Bible study because Deuteronomy said "... with all your soul." "Soul" here is the Hebrew word "nephesh," meaning "a breathing creature." When Jesus translates the Hebrew "nephesh" into the Greek of the New Testament, he uses the word "psuche," meaning "breath." Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defines this as "the animal sentient principle only."
In other words a breathing creature, a sentient being. "Psuche" and "nephesh" in the Old Testament exactly correspond. Just a quick note, this "psuche" specifically doesn't include the word "spirit."
"Spirit" is the Greek word "pneuma." We're going to talk about that soon, but in the New Testament, "soul" is not the "spirit."
They're not interchangeable.
[Rick] (3:08 - 3:51) That's really, really, really important. You have Jesus quoting an Old Testament verse, and that gives us the biblical authority to say what is in the Old is therefore in the New, because there's no changes. He's not changing anything in the Scripture.
Just like the Old Testament word, the New Testament word for "soul," that word "psuche," plainly describes our lives as human creatures. Now let's take a look at a few New Testament verses that do that. Folks, as you listen to these verses, it'll occur to you that, huh, I wouldn't have thought of this by reading the verse.
We'll explain that as we go. Let's start with Acts 27:21-22:
[Julie] (3:51 - 4:14) "When they had gone a long time without food, then Paul stood up in their midst and said, Men, you ought to have followed my advice and not to have set sail from Crete and incurred this damage and loss. Yet now I urge you to keep up your courage, for there will be no loss of life (that word 'life' is 'psuche,' your being, your soul) among you, but only of the ship."
[Rick] (4:15 - 4:40) See now, if the verse read "no loss of soul," you'd be like, huh? But the word "life" is the meaning of "soul, being." There's no loss of anybody's being.
The Apostle Paul in this shipwreck is saying, I told you not to go. That's not the point. But what he's saying is nobody is going to die here.
That's the word for "soul." "Life" is the word for "soul." It's very straightforward.
[Julie] (4:41 - 4:48) Right. Today when there's an accident at sea or from a plane crash, we hear "one hundred souls were lost." We know that means people died.
[Rick] (4:48 - 5:07) We use those words interchangeably as well, is what you're saying. Let's look at another example in the same book of Acts, because it helps us to see what the word "psuche" in the New Testament really does mean. Acts 15:25-27:
[Julie] (5:07 - 5:26) "... it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives (that's 'psuche,' their being, their soul) for the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth."
[Rick] (5:27 - 6:20) Now it's interesting. If you had substituted the word "souls" there, we could, because a lot of our traditional thinking, kind of create a different end result to this verse. Follow me on this.
These brothers risked their human lives. That's what the apostle is saying. They put their lives on the line for me and for the gospel.
That's clearly what he's saying. They did not risk their ultimate reward in the service of the Lord Jesus. They didn't take their spirituality and say, oh, it's at risk.
On the other hand, by putting themselves out into such danger, they would have actually sort of enhanced their approach to that ultimate reward. If you had put "they risked their souls," you would have said, oh, are they going to lose their reward? But that's not what it means.
It has nothing to do with the spirituality. It's their physical lives that were at stake.
[Julie] (6:20 - 6:31) Right. They weren't risking their spark of divinity that would end up in heaven. This is about living and dying as a human being.
"Life" and "soul" here are scripturally interchangeable.
[Rick] (6:31 - 7:00) Now we're going through several scriptures in the New Testament, and what are we seeing? The same things we saw in the Old Testament, the same level of definition, and it makes very clear sense. The New Testament also refers back to the original sentence for sin given in the Garden of Eden.
We spent a lot of time on that in our previous episode, establishing life and death and so forth. The New Testament refers exactly back to that. 1 Corinthians 15:20-22:
[Julie] (7:00 - 7:29) "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die (and that word 'die' there means 'to be dead'),
so also in Christ all will be made alive." Now that's curious, because you don't need Christ to make all alive if there's a part of you that never dies. You don't need a resurrection of the dead if no one's really dead, right?
[Rick] (7:29 - 8:40) Yeah, yeah. If you believe that there's a part of you that lives, you need a reunion. You don't need to be made alive because you're dead.
Again, folks, what we're doing is we're being meticulous about following biblical definitions to understand what the Bible is telling us. When the Apostle says "as in Adam all die," it means all become lifeless. All lose what they were given, just like it said in Genesis when God said, you'll return to the dust.
You return to that, not your body. You do! You become lifeless, so in Christ all can "be made alive." It's a beautiful thing to be able to see it in those exact same terms, and that should be a faith-strengthening teaching to say, wow, it's all harmonious.
Death came because of sin. We're going to go further now. Paul in Romans lays out the unfolding of this consequence in detail as he unfolds the contrast between living in sin and living under the benefits of Jesus' gift of life.
Let's look at Romans 6:20-23:
[Julie] (8:41 - 10:11) "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Here's my issue.
This Greek word for death, "thanatos," means "death." It's so easy. It comes from the verb form, "thnesko," which means "to die;" the process of dying.
Very simple. Here's the challenge. When describing death, this word here, the sin is death, "but the free gift of God is eternal life," Thayer's Greek English Lexicon that we often quote from, interprets this noun form of "death" to mean: "The death of the body, i.e., that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul from the body by which the life on earth is ended and the implied idea of future misery in the state beyond... In the widest sense, death compromising all miseries arising from sin...to be followed by wretchedness in hell."
It sounds like they have really read into a very simple word--that's death, ceasing of existence--and now you've got all this misery and this life beyond death in hell.
[Rick] (10:12 - 10:57) You described it well. They read into it. I love Thayer's Greek English Lexicon, because what it does is it takes those Greek words and it puts it into the context of the time and the New Testament, and really helps to round things out.
However, having said that, my challenge with that is it also takes, on some very specific Christian doctrines, it takes a traditional viewpoint that doesn't have scriptural basis, and it expands it. That is where I think it goes wrong. You mentioned it, Julie, when you said that word "thanatos."
That's the one. You said that word means "death." It's very simple.
When you look at it throughout the rest of the New Testament, it's pretty straightforward, right?
[Julie] (10:57 - 11:00) That's right. It always means that same thing--death, death, death.
[Rick] (11:00 - 11:17) We don't have a right, if we're going to have scriptural, spiritual integrity, to read things in that are convenient into the definition of a word that's already existing and very consistent throughout the book. That's where I have a problem with that.
[Julie] (11:17 - 11:27) I think we have to recognize, then, that in some of our study materials there are theological biases ...
RICK: Yes, right.
JULIE:
... where they're carrying this forward, so know that when you are doing your own research.
[Rick] (11:27 - 11:47) Go back to the word of God as the final word. That's what we attempt to do every single episode. Let's go a little further.
Let's go to James. He deepens the power of this gift of life and how we can apply it to our everyday lives. Let's look at James 1:19-22:
[Julie] (11:47 - 12:28) "This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls (your 'psuche,' your life). But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves." Okay, so Rick, how do we know--just checking--that this doesn't mean that if we turn away from sin and all these awful things and we do what the word of God requires, that our souls, our spark, wouldn't end up in heaven?
[Rick] (12:29 - 13:17) It's not talking about a spark ending up in heaven. Let's read the words. It's talking about our souls, our human being being saved from what?
Fill in the blanks; from filthiness, wickedness. Make sure that you live the word, that you are not just hearing it, but doing it.
It's saving us from living outside of accordance with God's will. Don't read something--and when I say don't, I'm not saying, Julie, don't do this--but let's not read something into these verses that simply isn't there. It's a very straightforward interpretation.
God's word is able to save us from living in the misery of sin. Let's accept that and rejoice in the meaning of that verse, and that's what really what I believe it actually means.
[Julie] (13:17 - 13:49) Okay. I wonder where does this concept of this indestructible, immortal soul come from? As best as I can tell from research, it's Greek philosophy.
These Greek ideas profoundly influenced early Christian theology and Western philosophy. This concept of an immortal soul was integrated into Christian doctrine, and it blended with biblical teachings. We're going to add a lot more on this in this week's CQ Rewind Show Notes. Go ahead and click that on our website and app, and you'll be able to see the notes from this week.
[Rick] (13:49 - 13:57) Let's get into that then. What is the difference between the soul and the spirit? Let's look at Hebrews 4:12 as a place to begin:
[Julie] (13:58 - 14:18) "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two‐edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart." "Division of soul and spirit" sounds like these are two entirely different things, but what does this scripture mean?
[Rick] (14:19 - 14:46) They are two entirely different things, and before we get to what this scripture means, let's define how they are two entirely different things. Let's come back around to that. We already know that our soul, our being, is founded in our physicality.
That was proven in the Old Testament, and we can see so far that the New Testament buttresses that perspective very, very clearly. The word for "spirit," though, shows us something far more intangible. Julie, what's that word, and let's examine it.
[Julie] (14:46 - 15:17) We said "soul" and "spirit." That word for "spirit" is "pneuma." It means "a current of air; i.e. breath, blast, breeze."
This word for "spirit" carries the sense of an unseen power, like a current of air. We use this in our English language. Pneuma: pneumonia is a lung infection.
Pneumatic tires are filled with air. I think of it like Wi-Fi. It's powerful.
It's influential. We know it's there, but it's invisible, and we have no idea how it works, but it's there, and we can see its evidence.
[Rick] (15:18 - 15:53) That's the point of "pneuma," of spirit, and we want to understand that the word inherently means essentially unseen power, unseen influence of some kind or other. Let's illustrate this. The Old Testament, let's go back to the beginning, and not only the beginning.
We're talking about the very beginning, and when I say the very beginning, I'm talking about the second verse in the entire Bible, okay? In this use of "spirit" in the second verse of the entire Bible, it shows us a tremendous example of unseen and mighty power.
Let's look at Genesis 1:2-3:
[Julie] (15:54 - 16:20) "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, Let there be light; and there was light."
"Spirit" here is "ruach" in Hebrew. It means "wind," "breath," "exhalation." It's mainly translated into English as "spirit," "wind," or "breath."
It mainly means "wind," but it applies to any invisible power.
[Rick] (16:21 - 16:44) Think about wind. When you look at the power of wind, you can't see the wind. In tornadoes, wind can chop the tops of trees off.
How does it do that? I always wondered, how does it do that? It's an unseen power, and this is a great illustration in Genesis 1.
We've got this very clear reference to unseen power being able to change things according to God's will.
[Julie] (16:44 - 16:54) Yes, and just like the Old Testament Hebrew "nephesh" and the New Testament Greek "psuche" meant "soul," here "pneuma" and "ruach" are the corresponding words for "spirit."
[Rick] (16:55 - 17:12) You've got this "pneuma" in the New Testament corresponds to that word "ruach" in the Old Testament. Let's look at how this word "pneuma," this word for "spirit," is used in the New Testament. First of all, it is God's power and influence.
That's very clear in John 1:32.
[Julie] (17:13 - 17:22) This references John the Baptist: "And John bare record saying, I saw the spirit (pneuma) descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him."
[Rick] (17:23 - 17:54) You have God's spirit, unseen power and influence descending upon Jesus at his baptism. That's the way we understand God's spirit--its unseen power and influence that drove Jesus to do things. Remember, Jesus would say, I don't speak anything except what the Father tells me.
It's the Father's influence working through Jesus. That's how he was able to do the miracles and so forth-- God's spirit, God's "pneuma." Human power and influence is also "spirit," Romans 1:9:
[Julie] (17:54 - 18:04) "For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit (my pneuma, same pneuma) in the gospel of His son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers."
[Rick] (18:05 - 18:37) In my spirit, in the influence that I have in my life, God is my witness. I pour my influence into these things that are important. When I pray, when I act, it is with putting myself forward, my spirit, my influence.
That's what the Apostle Paul is saying. You've got human power and influence defined as spirit. Now we've got another scripture that talks about multiple powers and influences, multiple spirits.
Let's look at Romans 8:14-16.
[Julie] (18:37 - 19:20) Okay. When I read "spirit," remember these are all "pneumas." "For as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God..." We can see Rick, the word "spirit" is broadly applied in these verses.
The spirit of God, the power of influence, which God exerts either on animate or inanimate things. We understand having a spirit of fear, a spirit of love, a spirit of wisdom. We might think of somebody as being mean-spirited.
Spirit beings are invisible and powerful.
[Rick] (19:21 - 20:11) That's why we call them spirit beings, because we don't understand their world. Like you said, it's that invisible power. The "spirit of bondage" is not some bondage individual,
it's this power of having bondage under Adamic sin. The "spirit of adoption" is the power of being adopted into Christ, not because you deserve it, but because you're called. Those are the things we're talking about here.
Think about when we use the word "spirit" in our everyday lives. You get around November, December, and Christmas is coming, and a lot of us walk around and shake our heads and say, we've lost the spirit of Christmas.
JULIE: Right, right! RICK: What do we mean?
We've lost what it means. We lost its influence. We lost what it drives us to think about.
That's what this word "spirit" actually means.
[Julie] (20:11 - 20:34) Okay, so with all of that said, let's go back to Hebrews 4:12. What's the difference between "soul" and "spirit" here? Let me reread it. "For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
[Rick] (20:34 - 22:09) The division of "soul/psuche" and "spirit/pneuma"--two very different things; our being, the division of our being, and influences. Let's think about this.
The context of this verse is talking about the word of God is powerful. The power of God's word--the influence of God's word, the spirit of God's word--is able to divide with humanity, with us--with you, Julie--He is able to divide who you are from what you listen to, soul and spirit. Now why do I say that?
Because as we read the verse a little bit further, it says dividing between soul and spirit, both joints and marrow--and here's the next part--and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. What the apostle is saying to us here is God's word. That's why we always go back to it.
It is the place that if we put ourselves with true honesty before God's word and we allow God's word, the influence of God's word to penetrate into our lives, it will separate for us who we are and say, here's what you're following. Is what you're following good or bad? That's the way I see it.
The power of God's word can and will reveal--we who are human beings, our souls--what we're following; the influences that guide us versus the ones that perhaps should guide us-- between soul, between being, and between what moves you.
To me, that's what this verse is saying. Again, you were right, right at the very beginning. Two very different things, soul and spirit.
We're good?
[Julie] (22:09 - 22:10) We're good.
[Rick] (22:10 - 22:12) Okay, let's go forward then.
[Julie] (22:12 - 22:13) We're not done, but we're good.
[Rick] (22:13 - 22:43) Okay. Recognizing the true meaning of "soul" (psuche) in the Bible helps us to more deeply appreciate all that Jesus did for us. Now this is, to me--this is really the core inspirational message of this whole conversation. Let's appreciate what Jesus did for us by understanding scripturally what we've just been discussing about the soul.
Let's look at John 15:12-13:
[Julie] (22:44 - 22:57) "This is my commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life (his 'psuche'--that person's life as a breathing entity--his soul) for his friends."
[Rick] (22:58 - 24:13) When you realize that in relation to scripture, Jesus-this is the night before his crucifixion--he's saying to his closest followers look, my commandment to you is to "love one another." Let me explain to you what that looks like. Greater love has nobody than to lay down his life, his "psuche," his soul, his being for his friends.
In the next verse, Jesus says, "You are my friends if you do what I command you." He's saying, I am giving my life up for you, because that's the great love that I came to fulfill. He did lay down his earthly life, his soul, he laid it down for humanity, and that was a direct fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy.
We're tying the Old Testament in with the New Testament, and the whole point of tying these together--we did at the very beginning, we're doing it again here at the end--is to look at what did Jesus do? By understanding the concept of soul, what we're saying is, what did it cost him? The answer is everything, by God's grace--everything.
Let's look at Isaiah 53:10-12:
[Julie] (24:13 - 25:03) You're going to hear me read "soul" here several times. That's "nephesh," because we're back in the Old Testament--that's a living, breathing creature. This is referring to Jesus prophetically. "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; He hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, He shall see his seed, He shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of soul and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
[Rick] (25:03 - 26:04) This is about Jesus' life. Let me just recap this verse with that thought about Jesus' life. It says in this prophecy in Isaiah, you "shall make his life an offering for sin."
His life was given as an offering for sin. Then in verse 11, he shall see the travail of his life--the trial, the difficulty. Jesus gave his life as an offering for sin, and he came through great trial and great difficulty.
Then you go on into verse 12, and it says, because he has poured out his life, his soul, unto death, his soul is an offering for sin. It was a painful, difficult circumstance, and it cost him everything. That's the gift that Jesus gave to us.
That's what the understanding of the soul shows us, is he gave everything up, and God, of course, miraculously brought him back from the dead, and now Jesus is at the right hand of God, above all, forever and ever.
[Julie] (26:04 - 26:06) He was actually dead. That's a key point.
[Rick] (26:06 - 26:08) That's the point, yes.
[Julie] (26:08 - 26:25) If you have questions about today's episode or any of our episodes, please write us at [email protected]. I have one last question, Rick. If the soul isn't immortal and the spirit isn't immortal, how do humans get to be immortal?
Because the Bible definitely speaks about immortality as a reward for the faithful.
[Rick] (26:26 - 26:49) Absolutely does, and that bears its own conversation. Coming up in several weeks, we're going to do an episode and it's going to be called, "Can I Inherit Immortality?" It's Episode #1382, and that will go into specifically what that word means, who that word applies to, and how it all fits together.
Julie, the answer to that one is not yet, but coming.
[Julie] (26:50 - 26:50) Okay.
[Rick] (26:50 - 29:05) Let's wrap this up. The mortality of humanity; let's take a look at this.
God created humanity as physical beings--as souls--to have dominion over the physical earth, and we saw that in the Old Testament. Very clearly, very emphatically, they're built as humans to be on the earth in God's image. Well, we know that Adam's sin sentenced all human souls to death.
The day that you eat thereof of this fruit, "dying thou shalt die." You will go back to the dust of the ground. If the man Christ Jesus hadn't come and offered his human life--just like we read in John and Isaiah--if he hadn't offered his human life in exchange for Adam's life, then that death sentence given to Adam would have been eternal for all of humanity.
It would have been the end of the road. There would have been nothingness. The bottom line here is that humans are and always have been mortal, but those mortal beings will all have the opportunity to live forever in God's kingdom because of Jesus.
Learning about the human soul helps us understand the gift of Jesus's life on a much higher, much more profound level, to see that this is how God's plan unfolds. Of course, we recognize that those who are called to follow Jesus do have a heavenly reward, but we're looking at the concept of the soul for humanity and how it works. The point is, God's plan is eternal.
Those souls will be resurrected and brought back because that's what Jesus came to do. Let's understand and respect the integrity of the Old Testament and the New Testament working together in relation to defining who and what human beings truly are--mortal souls. Think about it.
Folks, we love hearing from our listeners. We welcome your feedback and questions on this episode and other episodes at ChristianQuestions.com. Coming up in our next episode, "What Happened in The Garden of Gethsemane?"
Final Notes: copyright @2025 Christian Questions. In addition to this transcript, we provide comprehensive CQ Rewind Show Notes for every episode. They include every scripture quoted during the podcast, as well as graphics, illustrations and bonus material. Click the "CQ Rewind Show Notes" button near the audio player or sign up to receive these weekly at ChristianQuestions.com. This transcript was created using artificial intelligence. While we believe it to be accurate, we apologize for any errors that may exist.