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[Announcer] (0:00 - 0:37) Think about the Bible like you never have before. You're listening to Christian Questions. Experience more episodes, videos, and Bible study resources at ChristianQuestions.com.

Our topic is: "Are There Different Kinds of Evil Spirits?" Remove all of the Hollywood drama and excitement and demon possession is scary. As Christians, we need to understand it well enough to know the importance of staying away from it.

What are also scary and need understanding are serious mental health issues. Are demon possession and mental health issues in any way related? Here's Rick, Jonathan, and Julie.

[Rick] (0:39 - 0:49) Welcome, everyone. I'm Rick. I'm joined by Jonathan, my co-host for over 25 years.

Julie, a longtime contributor, is also with us. Jonathan, what is our theme scripture for this episode?

[Jonathan] (0:50 - 1:07) Matthew 4:24: "And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with diverse diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatic, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them."

[Rick] (1:07 - 2:02) The world is such a confused place. For many, discussing evil spirits is fascinating, as looking into dark mysteries beyond our world can be a thrilling and adrenaline-packed ride. For Christians, such conversations are entered into with a fear and respect as we are speaking of dark and evil things beyond our realm and our understanding.

It's therefore with caution that we approach this subject. The Bible clearly teaches us that demons do exist, that they are opposed to God and his righteousness. Further, we know that this topic is far too easily glorified and dramatized.

The specific focus of our present conversation will be to better understand how the Bible defines and separates demonic possession and influence from the serious mental health challenges that are so prevalent today.

[Julie] (2:02 - 2:20) This is a timely topic considering the positive awareness today about mental health challenges that people experience. Throughout history, compassion towards the mentally ill has been lacking, especially in the Dark Ages with people infamously executed for being "demon-possessed."

[Jonathan] (2:20 - 2:28) Rick, you've helped many friends and family members with mental health challenges. Can you give us a modern-day context for our scriptural lesson?

[Rick] (2:29 - 3:19) I want to tell a story exactly that way, Jonathan. First of all, it's a story of ultimate victory. We're going to break this story up throughout our podcast today.

It's about a very dear Christian friend of mine. This is a confidential story. I called them and asked permission to tell their story without giving away their name or location or anything like that, and they said, absolutely.

So we have permission to talk about it. They had a serious mental health breakdown several years ago, and it was a difficult, difficult, difficult thing to first of all, look at and accept, and then to work through. We're going to tell that story as we go through this particular podcast. Let's get started by laying some groundwork. First, demons are real, and we need to have a spiritually sound respect for them.

[Jonathan] (3:20 - 3:38) Demons are spirit beings who rebelled against God and instead followed Satan's lead into darkness. Jude 1:6: "And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,"

[Rick] (3:38 - 4:00) We've got that from Jude. Now in 2 Peter, Peter, just like Jude, uses several examples of sin and disloyalty to God while he warns against false prophets. That's the big context.

We're only going to focus in on one thing in this next Peter scripture, and it's on what happens to spirit beings when they become disloyal to God. We're just going to look at 2 Peter 2:4:

[Jonathan] (4:00 - 4:08) "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment..."

[Julie] (4:08 - 4:27) That specific word translated "hell" there is the Greek word "tartaroō," and this is the only time it's used in the Bible. It's a verb, so it's less of a specific address and more of an action describing throwing them down to their imprisonment. The noun form you might have heard of; it's "Tartarus," mentioned extensively in Greek and Roman mythology.

[Jonathan] (4:28 - 4:44) In the two scriptural examples here, 2 Peter 2:4 describes sinful angels as being in chains of darkness "reserved for judgment." Jude 1:6 tells us sinful angels forsook their proper rank and are now restrained in darkness.

[Julie] (4:44 - 5:02) The disloyal and evil actions of these fallen spirit beings led to the action of God, which was to cast them out of God's light and God's heavenly abode into this condition of darkness and limitation. Expelled from heaven, we think that they're now restrained to earth's atmosphere.

[Rick] (5:03 - 5:37) They are restrained in chains of darkness, but yet they're not completely tied up and completely ineffective. They are held back and limited, and we want to make sure that's clear. They're limited, but they still have great, great, great power, especially dealing with the human race.

In spite of their limitations--these chains of darkness, if you will--they still seek to control others, as Satan is still the prince of this world. Demons want to possess and to control. It's something that they seem to crave, and it's something that they seem to do well at.

Let's look at Matthew 15:22.

[Jonathan] (5:37 - 6:04) This is from the King James Version: "And behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil." Demons manipulate for their own dark purposes. This woman was not a Jew but came to Jesus in desperation, obviously hearing of his authority, and Jesus granted her request.

[Julie] (6:04 - 6:18) This is a little Canaanite child. In prior episodes, we've talked about how absolutely disgusting and dark pagan rituals of the Canaanites were and how damaging and often lethal they were to children. Who knows what this child might have been exposed to?

[Rick] (6:19 - 7:14) It's interesting that Jesus deals with this Canaanite woman who is not Jewish and up for all of those blessings, and because of her faith, without even seeing the child. He said, it's taken care of. There's this great, great power over demons that Jesus had just with a word, not even in the presence of that person.

It helps you understand this is big, this is magnificent. Let's go a little bit further with the demon possession thought before we expand. Perhaps because of their dark restraints, those chains of darkness--but again, remember, they still have power to influence and hurt-- demons have an unquenchable longing for any connection with the light of God's creation. Possession of a human may be--we don't know this for sure--but it may be a way of fulfilling that longing. Jesus seems to describe this in Matthew 12:43-45:

[Jonathan] (7:14 - 7:47) "Now when the unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterless places seeking rest and does not find it." This indicates their limited power. "Then it says, I will return to my house from which I came; and when it comes, it finds it unoccupied, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation."

[Julie] (7:48 - 8:19) That's really creepy! But what we're taking out of it is that demons have some limits. When our minds are focused on godly righteousness, we become off-limits to them. We want to eliminate any and all possibility of satanic influence over us. Don't leave an open door. Don't give these demons "permission to enter" because when we have something other than righteousness occupying our minds, that's what in effect we're doing. You don't just want to walk away from what's demonic. You have to walk towards godly righteousness.

[Rick] (8:20 - 8:49) That is the key point! We have to, if we get rid of an issue, a bad habit and bad something, and everybody knows this, if you don't replace it with something good and positive and powerful, what was is just going to find its way back and it will be worse than you were before. We're looking at, in this first segment, demonic influence, just in a big picture before we dive into the details here. We're going to be comparing demonic influence versus human frailty.

[Jonathan] (8:50 - 9:10) Satan and his demons are looking for places to plant and flourish their influence. This influence does not only come from demon possession or even dwelling on the dark side of life. It can be attained by simply filling the gaps of any life that is not firmly planted in and filled with godly righteousness.

[Julie] (9:11 - 9:15) That's why it's so important to make sure that our minds are constantly fed with righteous input!

[Jonathan] (9:16 - 9:27) You know, look at movies today, especially around the pagan holiday of Halloween. Minds are being filled with darkness. Once we see something on a screen, we can't unsee it.

[Rick] (9:28 - 9:51) That's such an important reminder to again and again think, what am I putting into my heart and mind? You've heard the saying with computers, "garbage in, garbage out." Same thing applies to the human brain; "garbage in, garbage out." Think about this. So far, the little bit that we have seen should be enough to alert us to the magnitude of the battle between good and evil.

Be diligent!

[Jonathan] (9:52 - 10:01) We've basically established the working of Satan and his demons in our world. What about mental health challenges? Are they of satanic origin?

[Rick] (10:02 - 11:34) This is an important question and the answer actually has different levels. On the most basic level, all mental health issues, along with every other malady and challenge that humanity faces, stem from the entrance of the sinfulness that Satan introduced to the world. That's the broad base.

On a more specific level, we do not believe that mental health issues are satanic. Now I want to just focus here for a moment because what we're going to be focusing on through this podcast are mental health issues, not just "mental illness," but mental health issues. That includes developmental deficiencies and neurological challenges and physiological issues, all of these things.

The point of this--because we believe this is what the point of the scriptures coming is--is to say that Jesus has the remedy ultimately for all of this, and he shows us this in a very specific scriptural understanding. Let's begin to unfold that understanding. We believe that demonic possession and mental health challenges are vastly different in origin, even though some outward symptoms can be very, very much alike.

We believe the New Testament draws a clear line of distinction, though it focuses much more heavily on demon possession. Let's give an example of this line of distinction. This next scripture is a really important baseline for us to work with. Matthew 4:23-24:

[Jonathan] (11:59 - 12:10) "Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people. The news about him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and he healed them." The King James Version uses the word "lunatic" for the word "epileptics."

[Julie] (12:10 - 12:36) The word lunatic refers to someone seen as mentally ill, dangerous, foolish. It comes from a Latin word, "lunaticus: lunar, of the moon, moonstruck." Wikipedia says: "Until at least 1700, it was also a common belief that the moon influenced fevers, rheumatism, episodes of epilepsy and other diseases." Here in the United States, the word "lunatic" has such a negative connotation that in the year 2012, it was removed from all federal laws.

[Rick] (12:36 - 13:50) I'm glad for that, because it is. When you look at mental health issues and mental illness and so forth, we have to be incredibly respectful, because you're right, history has put such a bad light on these things. It is not something that you look at and say, this is disgusting. You look at this something and say, this needs help, this needs compassion, this needs love, this needs guidance, this needs direction. This word for "lunatic," and I don't want to use that too often, only appears twice in the entire New Testament. That scripture, Jonathan, you just read in Matthew 4:24, that's the first time it appears, and it also appears in Matthew 17. We believe it defines mental health issues, behaviors that are attributed to dysfunctional brain operation, however it comes to be, whether it's congenital or through abuse of this or that, whatever it is-- so this is a broad picture-- dysfunctional brain operation, which can happen for, like we said, a variety of reasons. We're going to respectfully relabel "lunatic" as "mental health issues." That's what we're talking about. That's the important thing.

Let's go back to that Matthew 4:23-24 verse, and let's look at some key points.

[Jonathan] (13:51 - 14:01) Well, Jesus healed "every kind of disease" and sickness. There was nothing he couldn't handle. This was a preview of what the healing of mankind will look like in God's future kingdom.

[Julie] (14:01 - 14:16) Jonathan, you read "demoniacs, epileptics," and "paralytics." In other words, those possessed by demons, those with "mental health issues," and those affected by paralysis were specifically singled out as separate categories for healing. Why might that be?

[Rick] (14:16 - 16:07) That's important. You've got the mental health issues separated from demon possession in this verse.

We're going to hammer that because it tells us something important. Why are these three kinds of things specifically mentioned? I don't know for sure, but perhaps they were among the most outwardly noticeable deficiencies in everyday life. People would look at these things and say, that's scary. Stay away from that. This is a subtle recognition of the power of God's spirit working through Jesus that even these things that are so big and so overwhelming, he had power over.

Let's get into my story with my Christian friend. They had a serious breakdown. They had a big trauma in their lives.

Within, I don't know, six months or a year after, there was a tremendous breakdown. The kind of a breakdown where you look at it and say something is dramatically wrong. They began to see and imagine things that weren't there.

They believed that the end had come. They were literally going in the middle of the winter, barefoot, door to door, in the snow, knocking on people's door to warn them about this end. Now, what happened during this, this was a complete, complete breakdown.

They didn't know. They believed what they were doing. They tried to call me.

Interestingly, they called my office and I wasn't there. It was in the evening, and because I didn't answer the phone, they thought, oh, Brother Rick is dead. So they thought they saw a bird, and this is what they told me. I saw a bird and I thought that was you telling me, keep telling the people. It was a huge, huge, huge difficulty. Their life had taken a turn and it was out of their control. Their belief, their core belief inside of themselves is that they were possessed of demons. We're going to get to that. But that's where we'll pause the story for now.

[Julie] (16:08 - 16:12) Rick, you're protecting their gender. That's why you're using "they" because...okay.

[Rick] (16:13 - 17:13) Yes, I'm protecting their gender, everything about them. I am telling you that it's personal. They're very real, amazing story of hard work, of humility, of prayer and of discipline. We are going to see this unfold. It sends shivers up my spine every time I think about this. We're going to go back to the scriptures. Let's examine the only other scripture that specifically focuses on mental health issues. Remember we said Matthew 4 was the one we read.

It's in Matthew 17. Now the word is only used in Matthew 17, but the story, the actual account is in three different gospels. We're going to combine Matthew 17:14-20 with Mark 9:14-29, with Luke 9:37-43, all into one reading. The account in Mark will be the foundational account to which all the other details will be added. As we read this (we'll give you the scripture we're starting with) we're going to be going back and forth, bouncing through these three gospels to tell you one narrative according to scripture that unfolds this account.

[Julie] (17:13 - 17:20) This will be a great episode to get the free CQ Rewind Show Notes. You can easily follow along visually with all these texts.

[Rick] (17:21 - 17:56) At the very beginning of this narrative, Luke, the book of Luke, draws our attention to the fact that the day before this particular account unfolds, Jesus had experienced the vision of the Mount of Transfiguration with Peter, James, and John. He and those three Apostles were there. He saw this vision.

You had Elijah and Moses and the voice of God. It just was this amazing spiritual reassurance of what he was here to do. That's the basic context.

The next day, here's what happened; we're going to start with Mark 9:14-16:

[Jonathan] (17:56 - 18:18) "When they came back to the disciples, they saw a large crowd around them, and some scribes arguing with them. Immediately, when the entire crowd saw him (Jesus), they were amazed and began running up to greet him. And he asked them, What are you discussing with them?" Let's recap some key details. Some scribes were arguing with the disciples and a crowd was gathering.

[Julie] (18:19 - 18:26) When Jesus came near, everything stopped and the crowd runs to meet him. Like, oh look, it's Jesus! Suddenly these scribes are completely ignored.

[Jonathan] (18:26 - 18:30) Jesus noticed the commotion and asked what the problem was.

[Rick] (18:30 - 20:06) Jesus is seeing this discussion, this disagreement, and this large crowd. It's okay, what's going on? What's the problem? Well, the problem is revealed in a specific father's desperation to find help for his mentally dysfunctional son.

In these next verses, starting with Matthew 17:14-15, we're going to bounce between Matthew and Mark and Luke. I want to play the part of the father here as he's talking to Jesus. Folks, as we go through this, feel the desperation and the anxiety and the hopelessness and just the...I'm at the end of my rope. Feel that as he describes in these three gospels combined what is happening. "... a man came up to Jesus, falling on his knees before him saying, Lord...Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only boy ... have mercy on my son, for he is a lunatic (he's mentally unstable)...possessed with a spirit which makes him mute...and is very ill; for he often falls into the fire and often into the water. ...and whenever it seizes him....he suddenly screams, and it throws him into a convulsion... ...it slams him to the ground and he foams at the mouth, and grinds his teeth and he stiffens out. ...and only with difficulty does it leave him, mauling him as it leaves." Just feel the horror of a father with this child, his beloved child whom he cannot help. It is beyond his capacity.

Just feel how much it hurts.

[Julie] (20:07 - 20:18) When we look at the details here, the father recognizes that his only son is deeply and tragically mentally broken. This boy is plagued with a power that keeps him from speaking.

[Jonathan] (20:19 - 20:30) He screams, convulses and is physically unable to control himself. His uncontrollable actions inflict serious pain and suffering on himself and others.

[Julie] (20:30 - 20:35) Did you notice this condition? It comes and it goes, comes and it goes. No predictability.

[Rick] (20:36 - 21:30) Right. With a lack of predictability comes a lack of security. Then when it comes, what are you supposed to do? How are you supposed to act? You can imagine that he has tried everything that he can possibly know and they're having this discussion with the scribes and the apostles. He's saying to everybody, I need help.

I'm over my head. It's my only son! Please! He's begging. You can see the depth of what's happening here. Just one interesting point; when he comes before Jesus, he says my son is mentally unstable. That's what he says. The word "lunatic," that's essentially what it means. He's mentally unstable. It doesn't say he was possessed of a demon. He says he's mentally not stable.

He understood that there was something that was beyond their capacity. With that piece of this account, we want to again compare demonic influence versus human frailty.

[Jonathan] (21:31 - 21:53) Being born in sin brings consequences in every area of life. Our imperfect genetic makeup produces countless challenging conditions that can disturb and destroy lives. Many of these conditions are congenital, and while some may present symptoms that mirror those of demonic possession, the causes are entirely unrelated.

[Rick] (21:54 - 22:28) We looked at demonic possession at the very beginning to say, okay, this is what it looks like. This is what causes it. Now we're looking at something very different and saying, this is what it looks like. The cause comes from a very different place. We want to understand those differences and then understand how Jesus deals with everything. Any and all human deficiencies are such a tragic and heartbreaking reminder of the cruel and lasting effects of our human state.

[Jonathan] (22:28 - 22:34) Are we saying that mental health issues can be likened to a spirit of darkness?

[Rick] (22:34 - 23:35) Well, we need to be careful with this question. The fundamental truth is serious mental health issues need serious and ongoing treatment as well as medication. Because we don't live in an age of supernatural healing, these conditions need the same medically sound approach that a broken bone or a clogged artery need.

To answer this question, we need the basic facts to be put in place. It's important to recognize what's what. When you're dealing with a mental health issue, you need treatment.

If you broke your arm, you don't say, oh, look, it's a broken arm. Let's pray about it. You go to the doctor and get it set.

We have to understand these are in that same kind of category with that basis. Let's get back to our account in Luke 9. We're going to begin with... this is the combined accounts from the three gospels of the boy with the mental health challenges. We're going to begin with Luke 9 <Editor's note: Luke 9:40>:

[Jonathan] (23:36 - 23:56) "I begged your disciples to cast it out...and they could not cure him." A quick pause; we think Jesus is looking at the scribes here as he continues. "And Jesus answered them and said, O unbelieving generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring him to me ...bring your son here!"

[Julie] (23:56 - 24:09) Some of the key details that you've read, Jonathan, is again, the Matthew account in the King James Version is the one that uses this word "lunatic." This kind of illness was different from other illnesses in that it was a disease of the mind.

[Jonathan] (24:09 - 24:15) Such depth of healing could only come from a heart and mind fixed in faith.

[Julie] (24:15 - 24:28) Jesus would have, as we can imagine, felt that stark contrast of being transfigured just the day before and these faithless arguments before him today. He knows God is above all this.

[Rick] (24:28 - 24:59) He does. He's looking at the circumstance and he's heard the description. When you think of the word compassion, you think of the man, Jesus. He was the picture of compassion. Having heard this from the father about how difficult it was to try to raise this poor boy, and he's seeing this arguing, he's saying wait! Stop! Stop all of that! Bring this boy to me! Let's now get back to the account and see what happens. We're going to begin with Mark 9:20-22:

[Jonathan] (25:00 - 25:33) "They brought the boy to him. When he saw him, immediately the spirit threw him into a convulsion, and falling to the ground, he began rolling around and foaming at the mouth. And he asked his father, How long has this been happening to him? And he said, From childhood. It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us!" What are the key details here? Jesus is amazingly calm as he gently gathers the details.

[Julie] (25:34 - 25:41) The boy's father reflects his personal desperation. Please help if you can! "Take pity on us!" He's desperate.

[Rick] (25:41 - 26:24) I'm always amazed. You shouldn't have to be amazed, but you continue to be amazed. Jesus, while this child is having this convulsive attack--whatever it might be, whatever might be causing it--is calm because he knows. He knows that he's got it under control. He knows that the boy is not going to hurt himself because he is there and his intention is very clear; I will fix this.

He's talking to the father. How long? This is revealing. He says, well, since he was a boy, since he was little. You get a sense of that's what happens with so many mental health challenges, isn't it? There's something that is there. You don't know they're there. Then they come up out of nowhere and you look at it and say, oh my goodness, how do we handle this? How do we deal with this?

[Julie] (26:24 - 26:32) The sympathy that you have for the parents when there's a child who's having this issue in public; doesn't your heart go out for them and you wish you could heal them?

[Jonathan] (26:32 - 26:34) Yes, absolutely. You hurt for them.

[Rick] (26:34 - 27:06) You do, you do.

Folks, this is what we want to stimulate in this conversation. If you see others that have these kinds of things, see the kind of compassion that Jesus had. Now look, we can't do what Jesus did, but we can certainly be helpful along the way. That's what we want to look at. Now let's get back to the scripture. It mentioned that this spirit immediately threw him into a convulsion. Let's delve into that.

This is an important understanding here. Let's take a moment and define what we believe the word "spirit" means here.

[Jonathan] (27:06 - 27:34) The word "spirit" in the New Testament comes from the Greek word "pneuma," whose primary significance or root meaning is "wind, a current of air, a breeze." Because the wind is both invisible and powerful, "pneuma" and its Old Testament Hebrew equivalent, "ruach," gradually took on a much wider meaning and came to represent any invisible power or influence, good or bad.

[Julie] (27:34 - 28:07) We say God is a "spirit," and that's to say He's a powerful but invisible being. Likewise the angels are called "spirits" because they're also invisible to men, except as revealed by miraculous power. But think about it.

We also speak of both humans and animals having a "gentle spirit," a "good spirit," an "angry spirit" or mood, a "bitter spirit," a "fiery spirit." When used in reference to man's creation, it doesn't mean that we have another person inside of us. It simply signifies the life spark or life power that's common to all animals.

[Rick] (28:07 - 28:28) That's an important understanding of this particular word for "spirit" here. As a matter of fact, let's go bring that a little bit further. Let's look at two uses of this particular word "pneuma" in the New Testament for "spirit" that does not necessarily equate to some kind of a personal entity. First scripture we want to just touch on briefly is John 3:8:

[Jonathan] (28:28 - 28:43) "The wind (pneuma) blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the spirit (pneuma)." "Wind" and "spirit" here are both the same Greek word.

[Rick] (28:43 - 29:08) That's the important thing. The same word is translated "wind" and "spirit" in the same sentence. We have to understand that it's got this broad base of an unseen power. Folks, in a lot of news recently you see things about hurricanes; that's the power of wind. There's a tremendous power of wind that's displayed there. There's loads of them, but let's just one more example.

1 Corinthians 2:11:

[Jonathan] (29:08 - 29:20) "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit (pneuma) of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the spirit (pneuma) of God."

[Rick] (29:20 - 30:48) The spirit of a man, just like you said, Julie, the spark of life, that identity and the spirit of God, the same word defining both of them. It helps us to understand what this is. We're not looking at this "spirit" in this account of this boy as an entity, but a power, an unseen power that would take him and break him essentially, and everybody around him. Let's just pause for a moment because I want to go back to my story about my Christian friend. We left off saying that they had this incredible breakdown, and they believed, they absolutely positively believed that it was demon possession. Well, they ended up in the hospital.

They were in the hospital a little bit, and then they got out of the hospital and tried to get back to life, but it didn't work well. It did not work well. Soon after, I was with them and they were, again, they were losing it. I'm talking to them, and so I said, okay, look, maybe we need to take you to the hospital because there's all kinds of very, very disturbing thoughts and things happening. I'm driving them to the hospital, and I'm going a different way than they normally would have thought, and they completely freaked out because, like, where are you taking me? See, that's how bad it was.

This is somebody I've known for a long, long time. They trusted me, and literally, I was driving down the highway. I had to hold their hand and say, look, I've got you.

It's okay. It's okay. We're going to get there.

We're going there right now. I promise. Stay with me.

Stay with me. I had to lock the doors because they're trying to get out of the car. It was, it was...

[Julie] (30:48 - 30:49) Paranoid.

[Rick] (30:49 - 33:34) Yeah, it was just overwhelming. We get to the hospital, and we go into the emergency room, and we go up to the window, and I asked them to introduce themselves, and they do, and I said, listen, I'm their minister, and they need help right now. They responded very well and brought my friend into a room, and this poor person was so paranoid. They're looking around, and you can see the fear, the utter overwhelming fear in their eyes. Their eyes are darting around, looking in the room, and not trusting anything or anybody, and they sit down, and they put their head down, and now the doctor wants to take them into the other room.

There's two police officers standing in the room because this is a suicidal, very, very serious event. I asked the doctor for a minute, and I said, what's your first name? I'll use Susan for an example. My friend is sitting there with their head bowed. I got down on my knees so I could look them in the eye. I looked up, and I said, you trust me, right?

You trust me? They said, yes, and they nodded their head. I said, okay, this doctor's name is Susan.

I trust Susan. You know that means that you can trust Susan. Will you trust Susan like I trust Susan?

They nodded their head, and then I just motioned. I said, okay, come. Then they then took my friend and took them into the back room to help them. I nearly lost it as I was leaving the room. The police officers are just sort of like holding me, patting my shoulders, and saying, it's okay, it's okay. But you know, this was such a dramatic, difficult circumstance.

They're admitted to the psych ward, and I get the opportunity to go in and sit down with my friend and the psychiatrist. Again, I signed the release. They allowed me to come in, which was a big blessing.

The psychiatrist asks my friend, so what do you think is happening? They said to the psychiatrist, said, it's demons. The demons have got me, and I don't know how to get rid of them.

Now, in a psychiatrist, in a mental ward, that's a difficult thing to deal with. So I looked at the psychiatrist. I looked at my friend, and I said, can I say something?

The psychiatrist gave me the go-ahead, and I looked at my friend, my Christian friend. I said, listen, this is not demons. This is a mental health issue.

I need you to trust me. You go to church with me, right? I explained that this is something from within, not something from on the outside. This doctor can help you understand it and work through it. Can you trust this doctor, and you and I, we can work on this together. There was the nod, and it was like, huh. It's interesting, because at that moment the doctor looks at me, and when my friend is again looking down, and she mouths the word, thank you. Because it was such a relief to be able to be given the opportunity to do the work that needed to be done. Now we're beginning to get the help.

[Julie] (33:34 - 33:37) But Rick, how did you know that it wasn't demon possession?

[Rick] (33:38 - 34:23) First of all, this person is a Christian. Fundamentally, if you believe in Christ, demons can't touch you, period, end of statement. There's a fundamental aspect there.

But there was the confusion. There was...it didn't have any of the aspects of demon possession. It had every marking of a breakdown, of an absolute complete breakdown.

To me there was absolutely no question. Just a point at this point of the story is, folks, if you are unsure what you're dealing with, treat it as though it's a mental health issue, because you have to start with that. If somebody says they're possessed, that's likely a hint that they're not, because demons don't work that way.

We're going to get more into that in our next podcast, actually, a little bit more. That's just a basic understanding.

[Julie] (34:23 - 34:23) Thank you.

[Rick] (34:24 - 35:14) Now, with that story in mind, and that beginning, let's get back to our account, our biblical account. Our conclusion is that mental health, about the boy now with Jesus, our conclusion is that the mental health issue was being described as an unseen power at work in the boy. Remember that word "spirit;" we're going through the word "spirit." It's an unseen power, because the father told Jesus he's mentally unstable. He didn't say he's possessed of a demon. Whenever you see people in Scripture approach Jesus, they say someone's possessed of a demon.

He said he's mentally unstable. He knew it. He knew it wasn't a demon, and this is critically, critically important.

This is this "unseen power" of mental instability working in this boy. Let's take a moment and compare how an actual demon possession works in relation to this. Let's look at Luke 4:33-35.

[Jonathan] (35:14 - 35:22) I'm reading from the New Revised Standard Version: "In the synagogue there was a man who had the spirit of an unclean demon."

[Julie] (35:22 - 35:43) Let me stop you there, that "a man who had." This word for "had" means "to hold possession of the mind, referring to alarm or agitating emotions." This man was possessed by "an unclean spirit," that of a demon, a physical entity, what we might call, after this episode, a true demon possession and not a mental issue.

[Jonathan] (35:43 - 36:03) Let's continue as the demon became vocal and argumentative: "... and he cried out with a loud voice, Let us alone! What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are, the Holy One of God." Demons would often recognize Jesus and proclaim who he was.

[Julie] (36:03 - 36:24) That's scary! Just a quick quote from mentalillnesspolicy.org, Irrational Speech vs. Rational Speech: "In New Testament accounts involving demons, the demons spoke in a rational manner. Untreated people with (let's say) schizophrenia will often speak in nonsense and jump rapidly between unrelated topics."

[Jonathan] (36:25 - 36:53) Continuing: "... But Jesus rebuked him, saying, Be silent, and come out of him! When the demon had thrown him down before them, he came out of him without having done him any harm." Now, here's a key point. The preposition "out of" is used twice but is from different Greek words. Jesus commanded the demon to "come out" from the man and it fled away from him or "out from," and then "away from." It came out and went away.

[Julie] (36:54 - 37:05) Jesus's command literally sent the demon away so it can no longer influence the man. In other words, the demon didn't just kind of hang around in the shadows waiting for Jesus to leave so he could sneak back in and harm the man.

[Rick] (37:05 - 37:17) The influence of the demon is inside the man. Jesus says "come out" and then go away. You're right. Jesus makes it very clear and the language helps us to see that very, very, very clearly.

[Jonathan] (37:17 - 37:28) Here's another key point. Remember when the demon asked Jesus, "Have you come to destroy us?" Well, this tells us the demons are aware of their future judgment and potential for destruction.

[Rick] (37:28 - 38:15) We have this actual demon possession episode there in front of us, and it is very, very different than what we're looking at. In this example of this demon possession, Jesus communicates with and commands the demon to release control. The difference here is that Jesus is commanding an entity with unseen power versus, in our story with the boy, removing a powerful unseen malady from within the boy's physiology.

It's a very different thing and you see the symptoms can look similar, but it's a completely different process. Let's get back to the story of this boy and his father and his father talking to Jesus. Remember the father, he just said to Jesus, oh, please help me if you can.

Let's continue with Mark 9:23-25:

[Jonathan] (38:15 - 38:51) "And Jesus said to him, If you can? All things are possible to him who believes. Immediately the boy's father cried out and said, I do believe; help my unbelief. When Jesus saw that a crowd was rapidly gathering, he rebuked the unclean spirit (pneuma) saying to it, You deaf and mute spirit (pneuma) I command you, come out of him and do not enter him again." Key points: Jesus boldly puts all unbelief on notice as the father reaches for stronger faith. He assures the boy's father he can take care of it.

[Julie] (38:51 - 39:10) Demons were vocal. But did you notice Jesus here calls this type of "spirit" a deaf and mute influence? Why?

Because that's exactly what it was. We don't think that this "spirit," this "pneuma" was a demonic personality. Rather, it was a deep and strong power that had developed in this boy's imperfect mind.

[Jonathan] (39:10 - 39:30) 2 Timothy 1:7 says: "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." The "spirit of fear" is not a spirit devil that has literally gotten into our hearts. It is simply a mental influence natural to every fallen human being of humble mind.

[Julie] (39:30 - 39:48) That same "pneuma" of fear. Our final key point here is that Jesus wonderfully, amazingly commanded that this power leave the boy's brain because Jesus had the power to physically rewire his brain. The boy was cured!

[Rick] (39:48 - 40:11) There's a big difference between commanding the influence of a demon to leave someone versus being able to actually fix the wiring in someone's physiology. It boggles my mind to see that unfold here. What a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful picture this all is! Putting this together, we're comparing demonic influence versus human frailty.

[Jonathan] (40:11 - 40:33) There are strong similarities and strong differences between the handling of demonic possession and mental health issues. Both overwhelm and incapacitate and afflict individuals. Demons can hear, react, and understand, and Jesus always overwhelmed them. Mental health issues are maladies that Jesus can simply remove.

[Rick] (40:33 - 40:56) He can overwhelm them as well with the command and with the power of God. That's how he did it, is with the spirit of God; God's unseen power and influence that was working so mightily through him. This is all both scary and exciting at the same time.

We're beginning to see just how far and wide the power of God's spirit was able to work through Jesus.

[Jonathan] (40:57 - 41:03) What are the end results of this experience and what should be our takeaways in terms of practical learning and application?

[Rick] (41:04 - 41:39) The end results here are both very clear and also very challenging. We can rejoice in the fact that the divine healing that Jesus showed us was a magnificent picture of what will come to the entire world in God's kingdom. Until then, our challenge is to as best as we are able, understand and flee from any demonic encounters while embracing and helping with the complexity of the mental health issues of those whom we may know.

[Julie] (41:39 - 42:05) You're telling us run away from demons, but stand in support of mental health. Again I ask, how do we know the difference? That article from mentalillnesspolicy.org suggested another obvious difference, quoting from them the effects of therapy: "If prayer solves the problem, then it probably was not (in their case they're using the example of) schizophrenia. If medicine helps alleviate the problem, it was not demon possession."

[Rick] (42:05 - 42:48) Medicine with therapy, with practice, with discipline, all of those things are very, very, very necessary to make this work. We want to understand that mental health issues are widespread. Again, we're not just talking about "mental illness." We're talking about a wide variety of things that may be physiological or neurological or psychological. It doesn't matter. What matters is when there's an inability to function normally, we want to look at that and say, how can we help this individual?

All of that being said, let's get back to our combined account from Matthew, Mark, and Luke of this boy with these mental health issues. Let's look at Mark 9:26-27:

[Jonathan] (42:49 - 43:03) "After crying out and throwing him into terrible convulsions, it came out; and the boy became so much like a corpse that most of them said, He is dead! But Jesus took him by the hand and raised him; and he got up."

[Julie] (43:03 - 43:12) Wow! Through God's power and influence, this miracle displayed Jesus' ability to literally heal a mentally deficient brain.

[Jonathan] (43:12 - 43:17) The result was utter exhaustion for the boy until Jesus helped him up.

[Julie] (43:17 - 43:18) Beautiful.

[Rick] (43:18 - 44:23) It is a stark example of Jesus dealing with mental health issues versus demonic possession, a stark example. Let's get back to my story with my Christian friend. I'm going to call this piece "The Long and Winding Road," because they were in and out of the hospital two more times after that. It was not an easy path. They had to learn to recognize what was happening. They had to learn to take the medication regularly.

One of the big issues with medication is you start to feel better and think, oh, I feel better. I don't need it anymore. Those are things that happen consistently, and you have to stay with it, have to have that discipline.

They had to learn to reach out for help, learn to separate fact from fiction, learn new responses. They had to keep things in order. This is a big, big, big process in their learning.

What happened is they finally were able to go back to work, and they still had issues. They still had some of those paranoia issues. I remember vividly sometimes once or twice a week, I would get a phone call during the day, and they would be like, Brother Rick, they're after me.

[Julie] (44:23 - 44:24) Oh, no.

[Rick] (44:24 - 44:32) What do you mean? What do you mean? Well, it wouldn't be demons.

It would be they'd interpret the circumstances around them at work as people trying to get them.

[Julie] (44:33 - 44:34) Paranoia again.

[Rick] (44:34 - 45:43) Yeah, yeah. We would walk through it. Sometimes God overruled all of these things.

Every time that individual called me, I had the time to talk. It was an amazing thing to me. I could just feel God's hand because I didn't know what to do.

We were talking. We said, okay, listen, listen. What's fact and what's fiction?

What do we know and what are we assuming? We'd work on it, and we'd repeat certain things, and after 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 40 minutes, be able to say, okay, get back to work. Three days later, same kind of thing; they're after me. But it was a process. It was a learning process, and they learned, and they worked at it, and they worked at staying on target with the therapy and the doctors and the medication, and you could now see things beginning to work back into a place of understanding. It was a long, long, hard process.

By God's grace and through incredible efforts, they worked it and worked it. I'm going to pause there. Let's get back to our story with the boy, Mark 9:28:

[Jonathan] (45:43 - 46:00) "When he came into the house, his disciples began questioning him privately, Why could we not drive it out?" Something was different about this one. Not only did it not speak, but it was stronger than the power of the disciples.

They couldn't just command it to go away.

[Julie] (46:00 - 46:38) One of the key points we notice here is, "why could we not drive it out?" "Drive it out," this word is broadly used for casting out demons, but as well for removing other things without personality. One example of this I can think of is Matthew 7:4-5. It says: "Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the moat out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the moat of thy brother's eye." That "pull out," "cast out," same word for "drive it out." Not a personality.

[Jonathan] (46:39 - 46:45) Another example; someone who has a problem with alcohol "casts out" any and all alcohol from their home.

[Rick] (46:46 - 47:23) We put it in perspective. Folks, the beautiful thing is when you look at the Scriptures and you examine them and you unfold the accounts, it tells you what they mean. It tells you in such a powerful and deep way so we can understand what has to happen here.

The disciples are like, okay, this was bigger than us. We couldn't do this. Why couldn't we do this?

It was difficult. It was a difficult, difficult circumstance. The account actually concludes with a lesson on the power of faith and prayer.

Here's what Jesus says in answer to their question "why could we not drive it out?" Matthew 17:20, and then we're going to finish with Mark 9:29:

[Jonathan] (47:24 - 47:41) " And he said to them, Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, Move from here to there, and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer."

[Julie] (47:41 - 47:57) I wonder if they were trying--because they thought it perhaps a demon--they were trying to do it in that same way and it wasn't working because it wasn't a real demon. One of our key points is true faith doesn't magically appear. It begins small.

It has enormous growth potential like this mustard seed.

[Jonathan] (47:58 - 48:02) True and godly faith when mature becomes a life-altering influence.

[Julie] (48:03 - 48:12) We know that prayer is always the basis for facing our greatest of challenges, even when we are seeking professional help, medication, etc, etc. Prayer is our lifeline.

[Rick] (48:13 - 50:34) It is our lifeline. But prayer--folks, listen carefully--does not replace doing the things that are necessary. If you break your arm, you don't say, I'll pray over my broken arm as the bone is sticking out.

You say, I need a doctor right now, and somebody take you so that you can deal with it. Mental health issues and challenges need that extra help.

We need to make sure that we go and get it and stay with it. Because unlike the broken arm, you can put a splint on it and the doctor says, come and see me in five weeks. With the mental health issue, whatever it might be, it's generally an ongoing thing.

You're just going to have to get used to dealing with that. Let me use that as a transition into the final part of my story with my Christian friend. I call this part, "The Victory." These big, big challenges happened several years ago. We went through having to go through to the hospital several different times and all of the difficulties and the moving forward and the falling back and the moving forward and falling back and so forth. Now this is so awesome because we talk regularly. They'll call me after a work day and, hey, Brother Rick, how you doing? We'll be talking, and they'll tell me of the issues that come up that years ago would have been the triggers, would have been the starting the spiral. I won't say a single word. They'll say, here's what happened, and so here's what I did. They put it all in place and they explain their prayerful approach. They explain the discipline of taking the steps. They explain the necessity of understanding fact versus fiction.

They put it all in order and say, so it was a great day. You put them in a lineup with any other person and you can't tell the difference. They're doing the things they have to do.

They have this particular challenge that will always be with them, but it is no longer dominating them. Folks, that's the message here. There are mental health issues amongst many of us. Let's be generous in our support and our willingness to stand with and walk along for the journey, because there's such great blessing by learning to stand in a place of godly righteousness when faced with these kinds of challenges. We're going to put three points in front of us in relation to demon possession and then mental health challenges.

The first point; Julie, you're first.

[Julie] (50:34 - 50:39) We want to realize that demons do know the power and might of God, the Creator. They exist.

[Jonathan] (50:40 - 50:46) James 2:19: "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."

[Rick] (50:47 - 51:07) We need to realize that demons do know and they shudder. However, on the mental health issue side of things realize that with most mental health challenges, we may not know why our lives are so confusing if we have them. You just don't know.

It's like, what is happening to me? That's where finding out becomes such an important thing. Julie, what's the second point?

[Julie] (51:07 - 51:18) Well, on the demon side, we look with fear and respect, but we know that Jesus has it under control. We know that Satan's reign of terror with those who follow his evil ways is temporary!

[Jonathan] (51:18 - 51:32) Hebrews 2:14: "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death he might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil..."

[Rick] (51:32 - 52:21) Did you hear that? That through his sacrifice, Jesus would "render powerless he who has the power of death, that is, the devil." With that powerlessness comes the eventual--in the next age--healing of everything. That's a beautiful thing to look forward to in this world right here, right now. On the mental health challenge side, know that however deep and debilitating any mental health issue may be, it will in God's time be rendered powerless. Now it may not be in this age, it may not be in this life, but guaranteed in the resurrection, it will be gone.

When Jesus showed us that healing, he was giving us a picture of what was to come. That is incredible, incredible, eternal hope. Julie, what's the third point?

[Julie] (52:21 - 52:30) This is something no matter what our issue is: Remember that prayer brings peace and protection! Pray, pray, pray, pray, pray more!

[Jonathan] (52:31 - 52:47) Philippians 4:6–7: "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

[Rick] (52:47 - 54:17) That is a powerful, powerful statement. "The peace of God,"--it's "beyond comprehension"--can and will guard our hearts and minds, but we have to grow into it. Now on the mental health challenges side, remember that prayer brings peace and protection.

Julie, that's what you said on the demon possession side. Well, there's a big similarity here. Remember that prayerful and patient attention to any and all mental health issues is the foundation for true progress as we seek the right kind of professional help.

Go set the bone that's broken and then work through the therapy of bringing things back in order. Just finally, my friend's mantra in their life now; their purpose now every day is to simply glorify God in every thought, word, and deed. When they go through an experience and it's difficult, that's the question. Well, let me pray. Let me go back to glorifying God.

Let me apply the principles that are so, so important. As we put this all together, are there different kinds of evil spirits? Yes, in a very real sense, there are.

We've got the demon possession that we've talked about and alluded to, but we also have the darkness of the things that are wrong, that are broken as a result of sin. Those are evil spirits; not beings, but influences, hours that take away from the quality of a good and righteous life. We can put those in better perspective if we decide to get the right kind of help. Demonic Influence versus Human Frailty; let's put this together.

[Jonathan] (54:17 - 54:47) It is easy to confuse this type of experience with demon possession. However, there are three fundamental differences. First, this experience was labeled as a mental health issue.

Second, Jesus called it a deaf and mute power when he removed it from the boy, and demons are not deaf and mute. Third, Jesus showed his disciples that this kind of experience is very different from demon possession. Let us humbly accept what Jesus has taught us!

[Rick] (54:47 - 55:36) Just accept the fact that whatever the circumstance, Jesus has got it under control. If it can't be put in order in this life, it will certainly be put in order in the next life, in the resurrection, when you're called from the grave, you hear the voice of Jesus, and you come forth. These issues will be gone because Jesus paid the price for all Adamic sin, and these issues are part of it. New life, new opportunity. Thank you, God, through Christ.

Think about it. Folks, we love hearing from our listeners. We welcome your feedback and your questions on this episode and other episodes at ChristianQuestions.com.

Coming up in our next Episode--picking up on this story and going a little bit further: "Should Christians Be Involved in Exorcisms?"

Final Notes: copyright @2024 Christian Questions. In addition to this transcript, we provide comprehensive CQ Rewind Show Notes for every episode. They include every scripture quoted during the podcast, as well as graphics, illustrations and bonus material. Click the "CQ Rewind Show Notes" button near the audio player or sign up to receive these weekly at ChristianQuestions.com. This transcript was created using artificial intelligence. While we believe it to be accurate, we apologize for any errors that may exist.