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[Announcer] (0:00 - 0:36) Think about the Bible like you never have before. You're listening to Christian Questions. Experience more episodes, videos, and Bible study resources at ChristianQuestions.com.

Our topic is: "Should Christians Be Involved in Exorcisms?" The mere thought of someone being demon-possessed conjures up all kinds of scary images. What does the Bible tell us to do with these situations?

Jesus cast out demons and so did some of his followers. But what about us? Are we supposed to be commanding demons in the name of Jesus Christ?

Here's Rick, Jonathan, and Julie.

[Rick] (0:39 - 0:49) Welcome, everyone. I'm Rick. I'm joined by Jonathan, my co-host for over twenty-five years. Julie, a long-time contributor, is also with us. Jonathan, what's our theme scripture for this episode?

[Jonathan] (0:49 - 1:02) Matthew 10:7-8: "And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give."

[Rick] (1:02 - 2:06) Demons are scary. Not only are they mysterious, but they are also powerful beyond our human capacity. In our last episode, we mentioned scriptures that assure us that they are restrained in "chains of darkness." While this condition does limit them, they can still exert great influence on our world and on individuals as well. We know that Jesus cast out many demons out of many people and that some of his followers were able to do the same. The big question here has to do with whether or not such power and authority is still present within Christianity today. Are we supposed to be casting out demons today? If so, who's supposed to be doing this, and what scriptural instruction have we been given to follow? A lot of questions here; it's a big issue, and apparently it is very widespread in terms of being thought about. Let's start with a "post-biblical" view of things, a view of things from after the time the scriptures were written. What does exorcism mean today? Julie?

[Julie] (2:07 - 3:04) We pulled some excerpts out of Wikipedia: "Exorcism... is the religious or spiritual practice of evicting demons, jinns (those are invisible creatures like genies that are most prevalent in Islamic culture) or other malevolent spiritual entities from a person, or an area, that is believed to be possessed... This practice is ancient and part of a belief system in many cultures and religions." In addition to Christianity and Islam, we found the concept of evicting demons or using rituals to ward off evil in general shows up in Buddhism, Hinduism, Jewish mysticism known as Kabbalah, Chinese Taoism, and more. "In Christianity...the exorcist might use prayers and religious material, such as set formulae, gestures, symbols, sacred images, sacramentals, etc." Exorcisms in the Catholic Church, for example, could involve anointing with oil, laying on of hands, holy water, the sign of the cross, breathing, and lengthy prayers.

[Rick] (3:04 - 3:39) Wow, that's a lot of different things in different religions and different cultures. Exorcism is a commonly thought of and practiced ritual, if you will, across the board in many, many, many different religions and cultures. Here's the thing; the Bible uses the Greek word for "exorcist" only once. Let's put this one use in context. This is miracles and God's word expanding in the city of Ephesus, which was a very pagan city. Let's go to Acts 19:11-13:

[Jonathan] (3:39 - 4:20) "God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out. But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus... saying, I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches. Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this." We will come back shortly to what it means to "name over those the name of the Lord Jesus" and who the seven sons of Sceva were.

[Rick] (4:20 - 4:49) We've got this context. We're just putting the context out. We'll discuss it in just a moment. Paul had been working amazing and legitimate miracles in Ephesus, and I'm stressing the word legitimate because we'll see how that unfolds. This, again, was a very pagan place, and there were some Jews who went about as "exorcists." What is that word "exorcist" in scripture? You gave us a definition for today. What does it mean in scripture, Julie?

[Julie] (4:49 - 4:59) Here it's a noun (Strong's #1845, exorkistes). It's used this only one time. It means "one that binds by an oath or spell," or "one who extracts an oath," or "employs a formula...for extracting demons."

[Jonathan] (5:00 - 5:33) This comes from a base word that's a verb (Strong's #1844, exorkizo), meaning "to extract an oath," "to force an oath, to adjure." "Adjure" is a verb that means "urge...or request someone to do something"-- "I adjure you to tell me the truth." Some synonyms-- "encourage," "urge," "admonish." It is also used only once in the New Testament, as found in Matthew 26:63: "But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to him, I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Christ, the son of God."

[Rick] (5:33 - 5:51) Okay, so you've got the two forms of this word. One is used for these seven sons of this Jewish priest (Strong's #1845), and the other (Strong's #1844) is used with the high priest telling Jesus, "I adjure you..." I place you under an oath to speak to me the truth in this matter. Now, why did he do that? There was a basis in the Old Testament Law for being able to require somebody in a certain circumstance to be able to speak like that and it comes from Leviticus 5:1:

[Jonathan] (5:51 - 6:17) "Now if a person sins after he hears a public adjuration (which means a command to tell the truth) to testify when he is a witness, whether he has seen or otherwise known, if he does not tell it, then he will bear his guilt."

[Rick] (6:17 - 7:00) That "adjure" is a very legalistic process, and we have these individuals in Acts that are running around in Ephesus as exorcists, as adjurists, if you will, who are looking to demand those things. Let's now go back into Acts 19 and understand what's actually happening here. We're going to reread the first part of verse 13, and here we're going to see these exorcists trying to command a very powerful demon, and I want to emphasize the word they are trying to do that, because as we will see, it doesn't work out quite the way they thought. Acts 19, let's again reread part of 13, Jonathan, then to verse 16 <Acts 19:13-16>:

[Jonathan] (7:00 - 7:32) "But also some of the Jewish exorcists (Strong's #1845), who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus saying, I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches. Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this." That was brazen to use Jesus' name, and they weren't even followers of Christ. This word for "adjure" (Strong's #3726, horkizo) has a similar meaning to the word for "adjure" (Strong's #1844, exorkizo, used in Matthew 26:63), that is, "to put an oath...to solemnly enjoin."

[Rick] (7:32 - 7:58) What they're trying to do here, these people who draw oaths upon people, because that's what the word 'exorcist" means, they are now trying to put an oath upon this demon in the name of Jesus. What they're trying to do is they're seeking a higher power and applying that higher power's authority to be able to influence another power. That's the object here of what their "exorcism" is all about. That's what they're after. That's what they're trying to accomplish.

[Julie] (7:58 - 8:31) These men were professional exorcists. They'd go to different cities. They'd pretend with charms and spells to cure those who were thought to be possessed by demons. According to the Benson Bible Commentary: "They strolled through the countries of the Lesser Asia, practicing that magic which was in such vogue among the heathen. But when they came to Ephesus, hearing of the wonderful things which Paul performed in the name of Jesus, and, perhaps, seeing some of them, they took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits, the name of the Lord Jesus."

[Jonathan] (8:31 - 9:03) Continuing with verse 15 <Act 19:15>: "And the evil spirit answered and said to them, I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you? In other words, I know the authority and power of Jesus and Paul, but who gave you power to command us in his name? Jesus and Paul legitimately received their power from God. Continuing <Acts 19:16>: "And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

[Julie] (9:05 - 9:22) Wow! The Ephesians could dramatically see the difference between true God-given power and those who were faking. They were flippantly imitating Paul for money or fame, but demons were nothing to fool around with. There are no magic words to expel a demon, and we don't resist the devil using magic charms.

[Rick] (9:23 - 10:03) You have this example, and again, it's the only time in the New Testament that that Greek word for "exorcist" (Strong's #1845, exorkistes) is used. It shows you something that's very faulty, something that is defective. It doesn't work because they're attempting to hold on to a higher power which they are not connected to. It's a big, big lesson for us to understand what's really happening here. Exorcism in the New Testament didn't work so well. Now, casting out of demons, yes, it's a thing. But we want to draw the differences before we go too, too far here; Clarifying the Context of Casting Out Demons:

[Jonathan] (10:03 - 10:17) So far, we've introduced several methods of casting out demons, ranging from the attempts by the seven brothers in Acts to some traditional methods throughout Christian history. These practices provide us with a basis for scriptural comparison.

[Rick] (10:18 - 10:39) What we want to do is look at these examples, and then we want to look at scriptural instructions and compare the two. That's going to help us understand really what's supposed to be happening here. While all of this can be fascinating, we need to continually remain uncomfortable and keep our guard up as we further uncover the scriptural reasoning!

[Jonathan] (10:47 - 10:51) Did Jesus instruct all of his followers to cast out demons? If yes, where did he say it, and if not, how do we know?

[Rick] (10:52 - 11:16) This question opens up one of the core issues in this whole discussion. If Jesus did instruct all of his followers to cast out demons, then shouldn't we be seeing this on a far and wide basis? If he didn't give all of his followers that instruction, who were the ones who could do it? Taking it a step further, did this particular power over demons stay intact up until this very day?

[Julie] (11:16 - 11:51) These are all great questions. Rick, the text commonly used by those who say Jesus' followers do have the power to cast out demons (along with other dramatic activities) is in Mark 16:17-18. These are purportedly some of Jesus' last words before he ascended to heaven: "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in my name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." What do you say about that?

[Jonathan] (11:51 - 12:08) Well, Rick and Julie, the problem is that many Bible scholars reject the authenticity of these verses as Mark 16:9-20 is not in the ancient Vatican or Sinaitic manuscripts. We don't believe Jesus actually said these words.

[Rick] (12:08 - 13:26) That's an important distinction. It's not something that we're saying, well, it's convenient, you can throw those out. No, they don't belong. They were added afterwards. There's lots of speculation as to why they got added, because the gospel of Mark seems to just stop. It may be that they were looking to, well, we need a happily ever after here. We need the ending. What matters is these are not words that are authentic. We look at them and say, no, these are not the words of Jesus. These would have been--had they been the words of Jesus--they would have been the only Bible verses that can be interpreted as affirming all believers of Jesus would have such powers, including the powers to cast out demons. That's an interesting perspective here. That just essentially removes that because there is no other verse that even remotely comes close to that. So where do we go from here? If we don't have a comprehensive receiving of this power by all believers, all right, then who received it? During Jesus' earthly ministry, he did give this power to two sets of believers at two specific occasions. The first time he did it, he gave it to his twelve apostles. That's our first experience with this power. Let's look at the context of that in Matthew 10:5-8:

[Jonathan] (13:26 - 13:57) "These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons." "Preach," "heal," "raise the dead," "cleanse" and "cast out demons" -- all these gifts of the spirit were performed by the apostles before Pentecost while Jesus was still with them.

[Rick] (13:57 - 14:27) He was sending them out to prepare the way for him. Part of his admonition to them was "freely you received, freely give." His admonition was go out there and show them I'm coming and show them what I bring. Now it's interesting, you see that those are his instructions to his twelve apostles. The book of Mark on this same account adds the following verses when we get to the end of the account here. Mark 6:12-13:

[Jonathan] (14:27 - 14:36) "They went out and preached that men should repent. And they were casting out many demons and were anointing with oil many sick people and healing them."

[Rick] (14:36 - 15:15) There you have it. You have this power that Jesus gave to them specifically from him to them. Interestingly, we don't have any other references to healing by the apostles until after the day of Pentecost, until that day where the holy spirit came and rested on them as tongues of fire. There is no other reference to their being able to heal until after that, and that was after Jesus' ascension; fifty days after he ascended. We do, however, have just one allusion to casting out demons in Matthew 17, and that was the account of the boy with the mental health challenges.

[Julie] (15:16 - 15:31) Yeah, we just went over that last week in Episode #1356: "Are There Different Kinds of Evil Spirits?" Is your point, Rick, that we aren't given many individual accounts of the apostles actually casting out demons and how, what the formula was, for how they specifically made that happen?

[Rick] (15:32 - 16:15) Yeah, at this point, what do you have? He just told them to go out and do it. We have no evidence of them doing prayers or rituals or anything. We don't have any evidence of that. We just have evidence of them coming back and saying, here's what happened. The only evidence we have up to this point is Jesus himself casting out demons, and it was always a very straightforward practice, and we're going to actually get into one big example in the next segment. Let's go to the second group of individuals that Jesus gave this power to. He also gave the power to cast out demons to the seventy disciples that he sent out to again go out there to the cities and say, Jesus is coming, and here is what he brings. This is in Luke 10:1-3:

[Jonathan] (16:15 - 16:38) "Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of him to every city and place where he himself was going to come. And he was saying to them, The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest. Go; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves."

[Rick] (16:39 - 17:01) Well, now you're hearing that and say, wait, he didn't tell him anything about casting out demons. There were obviously things that Jesus said to them that weren't written, because when we come back in Luke 10:17-18, there's a whole different level of what they are looking back upon. Again, Luke 10:17-18 is the conclusion of this experience:

[Jonathan] (17:02 - 17:12) "The seventy returned with joy, saying, Lord, even the demons are subject to us in your name. And he said to them, I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning."

[Julie] (17:12 - 17:43) The seventy return all excited to report back to Jesus, but it's interesting if we continue with just a few more verses, Luke 10:20, Jesus gives them the proper perspective to have. They're all excited and he answers them: "Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven." In other words, calm down. Don't think too highly of yourselves in having these gifts, because 1 Corinthians 13 warns that we are nothing if we aren't full of love. There are things more important than what this particular project was.

[Rick] (17:44 - 18:37) The casting out of demons very, very, very much falls into that kind of a category. It is something that's very specific, something that is not all that common as we will see as we unfold the scriptures. Jesus told them very, very clearly that this is something, again, don't get cocky kid... This is...you've got to watch yourselves because this is not by what you're doing. This is by what God's power that I have given to you through me is doing. You're just purely the vessel that holds that power that heals the people and does all of these things. But here again, we have no other references to healing or casting out demons until after Pentecost. So we've got giving the twelve apostles the ability to do it and giving the seventy the ability to do it. Again, back up. Let's clarify the Context of Casting Out Demons:

[Jonathan] (18:38 - 18:53) During Jesus's ministry the only casting out of demons by any follower occurred when Jesus directly gave them the power to do it. Also, ALL casting out of demons by disciples in the New Testament was never called "exorcism."

[Julie] (18:53 - 19:15) One important side note moving forward is that the New Testament never shows us any demon possession happening to anyone who became associated with the Christian community. Why? We get this question all the time, Rick. People write in and ask, can faithful Christians, those who have the God's holy spirit, can they become demon-possessed? Is this something we should be worried about?

[Rick] (19:16 - 20:46) The answer is no, they cannot. You cannot. Understand, as we go into the next segment where we're going to talk about a very specific example of Jesus casting out not only one, but several demons, we're going to see what the power of Jesus actually is. If we are walking along with Christ, and I believe absolutely if we are walking near unto Christ, we have a protectiveness because his name is well known in the spirit world, and it is to be feared by those who are evil. When we look at this, I unequivocally, unequivocally believe that it is not something that a Christian needs to worry about. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't worry about the influence of Satan. That's a different story. Satan can influence. "The devil goes about like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8)." That's an influence. We have to be on our guard! But when it comes to possession, no. Let's look at a scripture that helps us to put that in order. In our next scripture, the Apostle Paul is encouraging Christians in the very pagan city of Corinth to "flee from idolatry," to completely leave it behind. He begins explaining this-- well, he's been explaining it throughout the whole book--but in chapter 10 of 1 Corinthians, he is using the symbols of the memorial cup and the memorial bread that Jesus gave to his apostles the night before he was crucified. Let's look at 1 Corinthians 10:16-21:

[Jonathan] (20:46 - 21:01) "Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread."

[Rick] (21:01 - 21:20) Let's pause there for a second. This is a clear unity, and this is a clear separation from everything else! That's the key to understanding where demons can and cannot go. You're going into a separated territory. This is blocked off. There is no entrance for evil in this context. Let's continue.

[Jonathan] (21:20 - 21:32) "Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?"

[Rick] (21:32 - 21:53) Now, again, the nation of Israel, both Jews and Christians, we're showing were separated from everybody else. Interestingly, in the Old Testament, you didn't have any cases of demon possession reported. They were separate. They were under God. That gives us a principle to take heart in. Jonathan, let's continue:

[Jonathan] (21:53 - 22:12) "No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

[Julie] (22:12 - 23:18) That phrase "you cannot drink" or "partake"--a quote from James Burton Kaufman Bible Commentary: "It "has the weight of 'I forbid you to...' Of course, it was not a physical impossibility for some to lead such double lives; and it may be inferred that some in Corinth were actually partaking of both; but it was a sin, the words here indicating that it was morally impossible to do such a thing." Rick, you brought up 1 Peter 5:8: "that the devil prowls around like a roaring lion seeking someone to devour." You brought up an interesting point about under the influence of Satan; we recognize that there is a difference between demons overtaking an individual like these biblical examples and using them kind of like a marionette puppet, versus satanic attacks on Christians in the form of temptations, suggestions, taking advantage of our individual tendencies. You don't have to be demon-possessed in order to be manipulated by Satan. He's much more clever and subtle than that and can so much more easily work through our own individual and societal definitions of morality.

[Rick] (23:18 - 23:50) That's where actually the biggest danger is. The biggest danger, folks, is not in demon possession, because that's here and there and here and there. But in the society in which Satan overwhelms with his influence and manipulates, that's where you have to be especially on your guard. This is a very specific area. But Satan's manipulation and influence, that is everywhere. We have to always watch for that. Thanks for that, Julie, because that's a really important point. Clarifying the Context of Casting Out Demons:

[Jonathan] (23:51 - 24:08) While we can certainly be influenced by demon-provoked evil, we as dedicated Christians will not be in danger of demon possession. This thought should not give us reason to relax; rather, it should spur us on to stronger dedication and obedience.

[Rick] (24:08 - 24:33) Never let down your guard! Understand it's not about demon possession. It's about staying away from any kind of satanic influence to the best of our ability. Make no mistake; that is our major challenge. It certainly seems that there were limitations to all who could cast demons out. Makes us appreciate how sober a responsibility this actually was!

[Jonathan] (24:33 - 24:40) What was Jesus's method for casting out demons? How were his followers instructed to do it?

[Rick] (24:40 - 25:16) These are important questions because they make us pay attention to the details of not only how this whole process began, but also how it was expected to be continued. Once we put these scriptural understandings in place, it becomes a solid biblical foundation to compare and contrast what has been happening through the entire Gospel Age. When we look at this, the point is, we've got some scriptural evidence and scriptural instruction. Then we've got to look at tradition and say, how well do the two match?

[Julie] (25:16 - 25:50) While many Christian sects acknowledge that there is no rite (that's a ceremonial description) of exorcism or priestly instructions in the Bible, they do believe that they're carrying on the legacy of Jesus and the apostles and have that authority to do so. It might include long and specific prayers where God, angels, and others are invoked. Depending on the sect, there's fasting. We've talked about breathing techniques I mentioned, restraints, holy relics. I found one very specific Catholic prayer that was over a thousand words long, very sincere, but also quite long.

[Rick] (25:50 - 26:38) Let's keep that in mind as we go through this next example. This is Jesus' own example of casting out demons and the way he did it was to simply command them. Now, wait, wait, wait, how could he do this with what seemed like such relative ease? It all really came down to two things; who he was, and secondly, how he wielded God's power, God's spirit, within him. Those two things created a power that the demons could not manage. This one example reveals many, many things about how Jesus handled demons. We're going to go to Mark 5, and we're going to park in that chapter for this segment and look at this example, because it's going to teach us a lot of what should and should not be done. Let's start with Mark 5:1:

[Jonathan] (26:38 - 26:42) "They came to the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gergesenes."

[Julie] (26:42 - 26:49) This was on the eastern side of the Sea of Galilee with a large Gentile population. It was also called the country of Gadarenes.

[Rick] (26:49 - 27:33) All right. We have where it is, and it's very, very, very Gentile in its population. That's important. What happens here is a possessed man is going to rush to Jesus. Now in the Matthew account of this story, it says that there were two men who were demon-possessed. You've got Mark saying there's one, in the Luke account it says there's one, and Matthew says two. Okay, which is right? Yes, they both are! Why? Because we believe that Mark and Luke are focused on the one of the two who actually ran to Jesus and had these conversations. We can harmonize both accounts. We can see the focus is on this very specific conversation here. Now let's take a look at what happens. Mark 5:2-6:

[Jonathan] (27:33 - 27:43) "When he (Jesus) got out of the boat, immediately a man from the tombs with an unclean spirit met him, and he had his dwelling among the tombs."

[Julie] (27:43 - 27:54) He's likely been expelled from the town. The townspeople ran him out. This man is living around the dead and the newly buried. That would have been very out of harmony with Jewish Law and just basic human instinct.

[Jonathan] (27:55 - 28:16) Continuing: "And no one was able to bind him anymore, even with a chain; because he had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him and the shackles broken in pieces, and no one was strong enough to subdue him. Constantly, night and day, he was screaming among the tombs and in the mountains, and gashing himself with stones."

[Julie] (28:17 - 28:22) Can you imagine what this looked like? He had this superhuman strength. He kept hurting himself. This is horrible!

[Jonathan] (28:23 - 28:27) "Seeing Jesus from a distance, he ran up and bowed down before him..."

[Rick] (28:27 - 29:14) Now think about this for a second. He sees Jesus from a distance because he gets out of a boat. He has no idea what Jesus looks like, and yet he knows. Why does he know? Probably--and this is conjecture on this point--the demons that possessed him understood. They knew that the power of God through Jesus had arrived. The man saw that, and I truly believe he saw hope. The scripture says, "he ran up and bowed down before him." He went up and he revered him. While this man does that, while the man humbly respects Jesus, the demons that possess him outwardly fear Jesus. Here's what happens next. Mark 5:7-8. This is the demon's response, if you will, to him bowing before Jesus:

[Jonathan] (29:15 - 29:29) "...and shouting with a loud voice, he said, What business do we have with each other, Jesus, son of the Most High God? I implore you (that's the Greek word for "oath" we talked about before, Strong's #3726) by God, do not torment me!"

[Julie] (29:29 - 29:59) The account in Matthew 8:29 adds, Do not torment me "before the time." We've talked about that word "torment" on our recent hellfire series. It's from the Greek word "basanos," meaning "touchstone," used to test metals like gold and silver. The mark left on the touchstone helped identify the kind of metal being tested. In other words, he's saying, Do not test me to see what I'm made of before the appointed time. The demons apparently know that there is a judgment day coming for even them.

[Jonathan] (29:59 - 30:19) Continuing with verse 8: "For he had been saying to him, Come out of the man, you unclean spirit!" They do fear Jesus because he is pure light. They are living under gross darkness led by Satan, who is constantly changing his evil strategy to please himself and create chaos at every turn.

[Rick] (30:19 - 31:08) Yeah, and you're right. Jesus represented the light of God because God's spirit flowed through him. These demons were in "chains of darkness," which means they couldn't see and know everything and they could only go so far with their power. Here they had this limited power of darkness faced with this concentrated light of God's spirit working in Jesus. They knew of the coming judgment because they had been shackled in these figurative chains because of that coming judgment, so they invoke Jesus with an oath. They go to him and they say to him, By God, we are saying do not test us before the time. You look at this, you can see that, wow, there's an escalation of argument going on here. What's Jesus' reaction to this? Let's look at Mark 5:9-12, because it's very, very telling:

[Jonathan] (31:08 - 31:52) "And he (Jesus) was asking him, What is your name? And he said to him, My name is Legion; for we are many. And he began to implore him earnestly not to send them out of the country." Luke 8:31 adds "into the deep," meaning pit. Continuing with verse 11: "Now there was a large herd of swine feeding nearby on the mountain. The demons implored him, saying, Send us into the swine so that we may enter them." Now a legion was the largest unit of the Roman army with maybe 3,000 to 6,000 soldiers. Many demons were involved. By announcing themselves as such, they were trying to show power in numbers to intimidate Jesus, but we don't know how many there really were.

[Julie] (31:52 - 32:40) This to me is the scariest scripture in the Bible. Whenever I read this, I hear him saying, "My name is Legion, for we are many." It just really bothers me. It's the sense of giving us more revealing insight into the spiritual realm, because there's obviously this hierarchy, because the demons clearly fear the power of Jesus. They know they're not more powerful, and they know that Jesus can't be tricked or misled like the rest of these puny humans. I don't think, though, that we're given a good reason as to why they asked to go into the pigs, the swine. By possessing any individual willing to let them in, they had some freedom maybe that they didn't want to lose. Were they trying to demonstrate to those watching that the demons' motive was to destroy the man like they did to the pigs? I mean, why the pigs? Why were the pigs there, by the way?

[Rick] (32:40 - 34:50) That's a whole big question. This was very much a Gentile country, but Jews lived there. They shouldn't have been raising pigs if they were Jews, okay, let's understand that right from the start. But here's the thing about that. Let's keep the context in mind. Previously, they said, I implore you by God, do not find out who I really am before the time. They knew that Jesus had the power to snuff them out. Then again, when he says, "what is your name?" Notice that Jesus didn't react with a response to, oh, you said that to me, well, here's what I'm going to say to you. He just says, "what is your name?" What he does is, he brings the whole tone back to the point where he is in control. You notice they say, well, there's too many of them to name, so they say we're Legion. They are obeying what Jesus has said. You've got to see that. Now they want to go into the pigs. Why the pigs? First of all, the pigs are convenient because they're right there. Secondly, the scripture specifically says they didn't want to be sent out of the country. They didn't want to be sent out of where they were because they had a good thing going. There was a lot of paganism around and they were enjoying--enjoying, I don't know if I could use that word--they're enjoying their power and influence over the people, whether they are possessing someone or just the darkness of influence. They've got influence. Thirdly, they're saying, don't send us out of this country into the pit, into destruction. Don't kill us, please. I think that they chose the pigs because they were there and they were afraid and just, okay, we won't bother the men. Just send us there. Just give us the opportunity to stay alive. The fact that these demons twice mentioned to Jesus not to destroy them shows the profound fear they had for who he was and the power of God's spirit within him. This is one of the key points of this whole discussion. They were faced--there were many of them-- you'd think they'd gang up on him! Oh no, no, they couldn't. They couldn't, they couldn't, they wouldn't because he was far too powerful for all of them. The request was to be able to just simply stay and be who they were, where paganism was rampant. What happens next? What happens next to many might be surprising. Mark 5:13:

[Jonathan] (34:50 - 35:01) "Jesus gave them permission. And coming out, the unclean spirits entered the swine; and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea, about two thousand of them; and they were drowned in the sea."

[Rick] (35:02 - 35:09) Now wait a minute. They get cast into the swine and then the swine go mad and they drowned in the sea.

[Julie] (35:10 - 35:11) Yeah, they couldn't handle it.

[Rick] (35:11 - 36:33) A lot of questions here.

Why send them into these pigs? Why do the pigs end up drowning? What happens to the demons? Let's put this in perspective. First of all, the demons didn't drown in the sea. Jesus released them back into the region in which they were because the scripture said Jesus gave them permission. You notice it had to be by permission. Every step of this account shows the power of Jesus and the subserviency of this demonic realm. That's a huge, huge point to understand this whole scenario! Jesus is far above them. He gives them permission. Why would he do that? Why wouldn't he just take the opportunity and snuff them out? The answer is real simple; because it wasn't the time. God had predetermined a time for their judgment. That's why they were set in those "chains of darkness." Those are not literal chains of darkness. Those are figurative chains of darkness. He put them there until the time of judgment. That's what the other scriptures say. Jesus was acting in accordance with God's overall word and will, period. This example shows us that Jesus's words were enough to command fear and respect from those demons. They couldn't do a thing outside of what he said.

[Julie] (36:34 - 37:01) I'm glad we're on the side of the true power. I've got a great quote from my Life Application Study Bible. It said: "Just about everything in this situation would make Jesus and his disciples unclean under Jewish Law-- they were in Gentile territory, the demon-possessed man was living in a cemetery, and a herd of pigs was nearby." I'm impressed that they went and they helped this man or these two men, even making themselves unclean under the Law.

[Rick] (37:01 - 37:28) Jesus had no fear of anything because he was not only begotten by God's spirit-- God's power and influence-- but he was carrying God's word, God's truth, God's message. He had no reason to fear anything at any time. We see that very dramatic example. Other times when Jesus cast out demons, he cast them out without even being present. Let's look at one example of that. Matthew chapter 15:22; we'll pause and then go to 28 <Matthew 15: 22 & 28>:

[Jonathan] (37:28 - 37:39) "And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, Have mercy on me, Lord, son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."

[Rick] (37:39 - 37:53) This Canaanite woman comes to Jesus and Jesus doesn't answer when she says that. But she persists because if you notice the way she described herself, "Have mercy on me, Lord, son of David." She showed faith. She showed faith, and then Jesus responded:

[Jonathan] (37:54 - 38:02) "Then Jesus said to her, O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish. And her daughter was healed at once."

[Julie] (38:02 - 39:05) We want to move into modern day. In a positive sense, we've all seen at least the advertisements for the scary movies about exorcisms. But from what I've been able to research, Christian sects that perform exorcisms now often mandatorily include psychiatry and medicine as part of the process. A specific hierarchy of accountability has been established. For example, in the Church of England, Anglican priests are not allowed to perform exorcism without permission from a higher bishop. It's performed with a team of specialists that include, again, psychiatrists and physicians, because there's these heart-wrenching historical examples of exorcisms ending up in cripples or crippling or death of the individual who really were severely mentally disturbed. Catholic bishops rarely authorize exorcisms today. They approach "would-be cases with the presumption that mental or physical illness is the more probable cause (Wikipedia)." I think that's very positive today.

[Rick] (39:06 - 39:41) It is, absolutely. In our last episode, when we were talking about that, that's what Jesus explained to us. He just showed us that there are other things that are much more prevalent than demon possession. Here in this one example in Matthew 15, he didn't even know where the child was and he was able to heal that child. That's the power of God's spirit working through Jesus. This demon was sent away from that child, from this power, from an unknown location. What matters is it's God's power versus the powers of darkness. There's a dramatic difference between the two. Clarifying the Context of Casting Out Demons:

[Jonathan] (39:42 - 40:03) When dealing with demons, Jesus, through God's spirit, had complete control, unquestioned authority, and power that was unable to be challenged. He always carried out the will of God, and he always did it within God's timing. His power was so overwhelming that he did not even have to be in the presence of the possessed individual to heal them.

[Rick] (40:04 - 40:30) You see a power that is beyond equal when you see the power of Jesus with God's spirit driving it. That's the key to everything. It's God's spirit driving it. Darkness does not stand a chance, period. Look, it's hard to even comprehend the might, power, compassion, wisdom, and mercy shown here. Jesus truly is Lord!

[Jonathan] (40:30 - 40:38) How did Jesus' example translate to the actions of his followers after Pentecost, where they were casting out demons?

[Rick] (40:38 - 41:05) By focusing on this point, we'll be able to put the whole present-day involvement with exorcisms into perspective. We're now going to highlight every single New Testament follower of Jesus who cast out demons after Pentecost. Now, how can we do that? It's actually easy because there's only three of them! As we go through their examples, let's pay close attention to what they did and to how they did it.

[Julie] (41:05 - 41:42) One more thing I just wanted to bring up about more modern-day. Historically, with exorcisms in churches, breathing techniques have been a part of it for Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Maronite (Lebanese Christians), and Coptic (Egyptian Orthodox) rites. Insufflation (blowing in) and exsufflation (blowing out) are ritual acts of blowing, breathing, hissing, or puffing to renounce the evil and inhale the grace of God. That's been the traditional thing of what's been used. I thought that was really interesting.

[Rick] (41:42 - 42:25) What you're saying is throughout all of these different religions and cultures, there are multiple rituals that cover a wide variety of things. Let's compare those things with these next examples of casting out demons, and let's see what the difference is, those denominational ways of doing things that have been going on for the last two thouand years, versus all of the examples in the New Testament after Pentecost, after the holy spirit was given. There are three individuals who qualify for this. First is the Apostle Peter. Apostle Peter casting out demons; this is the only reference to him related to demon activity, and that's in Acts 5:12, 14-16:

[Jonathan] (42:25 - 43:04) "At the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were taking place... And all the more believers in the Lord, multitudes of men and women, were constantly added to their number, to such an extent that they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and pallets, so that when Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on any one of them. Also, the people from the cities in the vicinity of Jerusalem were coming together, bringing people who were sick or afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all being healed." Unclean spirits are impure and unseen powers.

[Rick] (43:04 - 44:39) That's the way demons are described through the rest of the New Testament, impure and unseen powers. We've got this description, and we've got the Apostle Peter. Now, we don't have record of him saying anything. We do have record of his shadow passing over many people and healing them. We're looking at this example, and there's not a word. There's not a ritual. There's not a breathing technique. There's not a prayer. But there's merely the physical shadow of one who is profoundly driven by God's spirit, the shadow of the Apostle Peter. Why did the shadow work? It's because of God's spirit. That's it, period. End of statement. Don't make anything more of it. That's how it works. That's how it always works. When you see miracles, it's always because of the spirit of God. Let's also notice that here, the casting out of unclean spirits was directly related, it was tied to the gift of healing. This is an important connection that goes through all of these examples in the New Testament, and it draws a very specific conclusion as we move forward. With the Apostle Peter, that's it; that's the only experience we have in his dealing with demons. Next is Philip. Philip cast out demons. Now, there's a few "Philips" in the New Testament. This is the Philip who converted the eunuch and who was one of the seven original deacons. Remember Stephen was one of those seven original deacons and he was stoned for his faith? I'll tell you, those seven original deacons must have been some special, special individuals, because listen to what Philip is able to do in these verses. This is, again, the only mention of his demon-related activity. Looking at Acts 8:5-8:

[Jonathan] (44:39 - 44:42) "Philip went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them. The crowds with one accord were giving attention to what was said by Philip, as they heard and saw the signs which he was performing. For in the case of many who had unclean spirits, they were coming out of them shouting with a loud voice; and many who had been paralyzed and lame were healed. So there was much rejoicing in that city."

[Julie] (45:06 - 45:25) We see here, again, casting out demons is directly related to this gift of healing. It doesn't seem like there's any specific accounts of these dramatic encounters with a demon. I also notice that this isn't done behind closed doors in a dark room. This is a public event for all to see.

[Rick] (45:26 - 46:59) It's not only a public event-- that's a really important point-- but it is all about the public. It's not about believers. Healing, all of this demon casting out, was about the public. Those who weren't believing, but were looking to see, what is this? What is this? What is this? That puts casting out demons and healing into a very specific perspective. In the New Testament, healing was always about the public. Bottom line, be blunt about this; those who go about healing inside of churches have taken the concept out of its original context. They're doing something the scriptures never told us to do. We have to understand that in relation to the casting out of demons. It's the same thing. It's to the public. It gives you the sense of this incredible ability to wield the power of God's spirit in these individuals. Now with Philip, it said they were coming to him and these demons were being cast out with a loud voice. Perhaps Philip said something to them. We don't know because we don't need to know. Interestingly, the next individual who is casting out demons is the Apostle Paul. There's two instances where this relates to the Apostle Paul. We are going chronologically through the book of Acts because that's the only place this all appears. In this first example with the Apostle Paul and demons, it's the only example, outside of Jesus, where we actually see words used. This becomes an important touchstone for us. Acts 16:16-19:

[Jonathan] (46:59 - 47:42) "It happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a slave-girl having a spirit of divination (soothsaying) met us, who was bringing her masters much profit by fortune-telling. Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation. She continued doing this for many days. But Paul was greatly annoyed, and turned and said to the spirit, I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her! And it came out at that very moment. But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities..."

[Rick] (47:42 - 48:36) They seized them and grabbed and brought them to the authorities because now their power to make money through the spirit of divination was gone. What does Paul do? He tolerates it and tolerates it and tolerates it, and then he says very simply, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." That's it. There's no prayer. There's no stopping. There's no ritual. There's no incense. There's no breathing. There's no any of those things. There's the simple clarity of a command. Folks, that's the only time we have anybody other than Jesus showing us the words to use. That's our template. That's our example. A simple command, no rituals were needed. Now the final example of the Apostle Paul dealing with demons in the New Testament-- this is the final example in the entire New Testament--is in Acts 19. This is more of a general situation, just like when we looked at Peter and Philip. This is Acts 19:11-12:

[Jonathan] (48:37 - 48:49) "God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out."

[Julie] (48:50 - 49:21) We don't read about any casting out of demons after this particular event. I mean, here, there's no words. It's the handkerchiefs themselves are doing the work. This was so much like Peter's experience, where you've got healing and casting out of demons, they're intertwined, all in the context of the purpose of establishing Christianity. One thing that struck me in studying for this lesson is, the more time that we spend our focus on demons and Satan, the less time we're spending focused on Christ and God.

[Rick] (49:22 - 50:06) That's an important point. As we mentioned before, the biggest point is avoiding the influences of Satan, the manipulations of Satan. Demon possession is out there. How common it is? I don't know. But I do know that according to scripture, we're given very specific guidelines and they're very narrow and you can memorize them in a minute. By the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to come out of her. That's it. But we don't see it being passed on to others. We don't see anybody doing it throughout the rest of the New Testament. You look at this and say, this is different than what I perhaps previously have thought. Let's put it all in context; Clarifying the Context of Casting Out Demons; let's put it all together.

[Jonathan] (50:06 - 50:17) How do we define the activity of casting out demons after Jesus' earthly ministry ended? First, it was clearly a gift of the spirit, as was healing.

[Julie] (50:17 - 50:23) Second, no rituals were included because it happened by the power of God's spirit, often without even words.

[Jonathan] (50:23 - 50:29) Third, when words were used, they were a simple command in the name of Jesus Christ.

[Julie] (50:29 - 50:39) Fourth and final, casting out demons was never shown to be needed with those genuinely associated with following Christ. That's really important to remember!

[Rick] (50:39 - 51:33) It is really important to remember and it gives us great comfort. Folks, the point is very, very simple. The name of Jesus is very, very, very powerful and demons shudder at his name. When we look at what's happened in these scriptures, what we can see is that there is so much more to this that we should leave out of our own hands. The scriptures don't tell us to go after this. What they do tell us to do is have faith and be separate from the world and honor God through that and let God's spirit do the guiding and the directing. Should Christians be involved in exorcisms at this point? Folks, the scriptures don't tell us we should. Let's listen to what the scriptures say. Think about it. We love hearing from our listeners, folks. We welcome your feedback and questions on this episode and other episodes at ChristianQuestions.com. Coming up in our next Episode: "What's the Difference Between Burnt Offerings and Sin Offerings?"

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