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[Announcer] (0:00 - 0:20) Think about the Bible like you never have before. You are listening to Christian Questions. Experience more episodes, videos, and Bible study resources at ChristianQuestions.com.

Our topic is: "What Did Jesus Mean When He Talked About Hellfire?" --an exclusive listener Q&A series. Here's Rick and Julie.

[Rick] (0:21 - 0:51) Welcome, everyone. I'm Rick. I'm joined by Julie, our long-time contributor.

This is a special edition episode made possible by you. Our listeners email us and submit questions at ChristianQuestions.com. We get great responses from the Q&As that post on our website.

Periodically, we pick one of these questions that you may not have considered before to address in a shorter episode. We are excited to get into today's Listener Q&A topic. Julie, what is our theme scripture?

[Julie] (0:52 - 1:07) Mark 9:47-48: "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED."

[Rick] (1:07 - 2:04) To the critical observer, modern Christianity is confusing as we have countless denominations and there are countless ways of interpreting scripture. These widely varied interpretations give birth to widely varied traditions that support those interpretations. As a major subset of all of this, we have wide discrepancies regarding the destiny of "unbelievers." Several times Jesus plainly taught about the consequences of hell. The enormous question that needs answering is, did he teach that hell was a place of agonizing and eternal torture from which there is no escape OR were his several references to hell pointing to a very different meaning? Today's focus will be on the primary New Testament word that Jesus used to describe hell.

If we understand the word in its context, we'll understand Jesus' meaning.

[Julie] (2:05 - 2:10) Rick, right away, what is our position on hell as a place of eternal conscience torment?

[Rick] (2:11 - 2:21) Our position is, very plainly, that that is not scriptural. It is not what Jesus taught. He was talking about something entirely different.

[Julie] (2:22 - 2:26) Why do we say that when thousands of years of tradition and superstition say otherwise?

[Rick] (2:26 - 2:57) You're right, and that's why this is such an important topic. There are thousands of years of tradition that go that way, but here's why. As we will unfold, there is a profound harmony of scripture from both Old and New Testament, and when you put those two together, you see a clarity.

Let's get right into this. Let's begin by quoting three different plain statements of Jesus that are representative of his teachings about hell. Julie, let's start with Mark 9:43, 47-48:

[Julie] (2:57 - 3:50) Now he spoke these words to his followers: "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire..." Now our theme text: "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED." But Rick, there's more. He also talked about hell to the scribes and Pharisees in Matthew 23:29, 32-33. He said: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous... Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?" That sounds pretty ominous. Now what?

[Rick] (3:50 - 3:55) It is pretty ominous! Let's add to the ominousness-- I don't know if that's a word.

[Julie] (3:55 - 3:55) Ominosity?

[Rick] (3:56 - 4:41) Ominosity. Oh, I like that! Ominosity.

Let's add another scripture to that. Speaking to his followers in Matthew 10:28, Jesus said: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." We have hell again and again and again in these three different scripture references. There are a few others, but these are very, very representative. What we have are several major questions that need to be answered. Let's go through three of them.

First: What or where is the hell that Jesus was talking about? The second question: How can we explain away the "unquenchable fire?" The third question: What about the worms that never die?

[Julie] (4:42 - 4:49) These are great questions. Let's do them one at a time. The first one you said was, "What or where is the hell Jesus is talking about?"

[Rick] (4:49 - 5:11) When you look at the word that Jesus uses in those Mark scriptures, the Matthew scriptures that we quoted and several others, it is the word for "Gehenna." That's the Greek word. The word literally means, "the Valley of the Son of Hinnom." "The Valley of the Son of Hinnom." That's what it literally means. It's an actual location.

[Julie] (5:11 - 6:11) We looked up Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary and it says this: "In the time of Jesus the Valley of Hinnom was used as the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Into it were thrown all the filth and garbage of the city, including the dead bodies of animals and executed criminals. To consume all this, fires burned constantly. Maggots worked in the filth. When the wind blew from that direction over the city, its awfulness was quite evident." I wanted to add Albert Barnes' commentary because they say: "The Jew's extreme loathsomeness of the place, the filth and putrefaction, the corruption of the atmosphere, and the lurid fires blazing by day and night, made it one of the most appalling symbols with which a Jew was acquainted." That's the traditional explanation. Now there is some question among scholars today because archaeologists haven't actually found evidence of this garbage dump and it's not mentioned in early literary writings, at least those that have survived, but let's just assume for a moment that Jesus was alluding to this.

[Rick] (6:11 - 7:13) As we look at how Jesus describes things, I think it does seem very clear to me that that is, but the doubt is there; acknowledge it. Absolutely. Let's look at it as a garbage dump. What's Jesus saying?

Is he saying that if you speak slanderously of your brother or if you lust in your heart or act hypocritically or sinfully, that your penalty is to be burned up at the local dump? Because this is a location. This is an actual location.

Was there something about this particular valley, this "Valley of the Son of Hinnom," that made it worthy to be a specific example used by Jesus over and over again? What was there about this valley, this physical place, which incidentally was on earth, not beneath the earth, not someplace else. It was a physical location.

What we find is this particular valley was well known by Jewish people for very, very, very specific, and I might add, traumatic reasons. Julie, let's look at Jeremiah 19:2-6. We're going to take this in pieces:

[Julie] (7:14 - 7:38) "And go forth unto the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee, And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle."

[Rick] (7:39 - 8:00) Let's pause there for a moment. God is proclaiming through the prophet Jeremiah, I am going to "bring evil on this place," and whoever hears about this, it's going to be ringing in their ears. It's going to be something very, very dramatic. Look, when God Almighty proclaims something like that, you know something is very, very, very far off. Let's go a little bit further.

Let's go to verse 4:

[Julie] (8:01 - 8:13) "Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents..."

[Rick] (8:13 - 8:44) Okay, let's pause there. It is a place of serious, overt idolatry. This is the first proclamation of condemnation to this piece of land. They have used this place as a place, a centerpiece for idolatry, which--look at the Ten Commandments: "You shall have no other gods before Me"-- this is breaking the fundamental truth that Israel was taught. Now let's go to verse 5:

[Julie] (8:44 - 8:56) "...they have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind..."

[Rick] (8:56 - 9:30) Let's pause there; don't want to but have to. They sacrificed their children by burning them alive to the god Baal, to this idolatrous practice.

You see, God's response to that is, this is what happens with My chosen people?! This is something that I could not even fathom in My mind! This is so far off from anything resembling godliness and righteousness.

This is God's reaction. It's like, I can't even imagine this, and here you are doing this! Verse 6:

[Julie] (9:31 - 10:38) "...therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that this place shall no more be called Tophet, nor the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter." Let me give you a little background on that. In Jewish history, this valley was first named the "Valley of the Son of Hinnom" after its owners in the time of Joshua, and it became known as "Tophet" because of the child sacrifice that occurred there. Scholars aren't sure of the origin of this word. It could be Aramaic, meaning "hearth" or "fireplace," and the Old Testament links it several times to a place of ritual fire or burning. Some older Bible commentary suggests it comes from a Hebrew word meaning "drum," referencing drums that they would play to block out the cries of these babies. Verse 6 here now says it would be called "the Valley of Slaughter." God is repeating Jeremiah 7:31-32. Because of the idolatry of Judah and this horrific practice of human sacrifice, they would be overrun by their enemies and their dead corpses would be eaten by animals instead of buried. That would have been extremely shameful to the Hebrews.

[Rick] (10:39 - 10:55) You have all of this history in this "Valley of Hinnom"--"Gehenna." This is the place that Jesus is talking about, and you can see there is nothing good about any of these descriptions. Now let's go to verse Jeremiah 19:7:

[Julie] (10:56 - 11:20) "And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcasses will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth." That's why it was called the "Valley of Slaughter." The question though; is this eternal destruction or eternal conscious pain?

[Rick] (11:20 - 12:22) When many Christians look at what Jesus describes when he uses the word "Gehenna," they interpret it as eternal conscious pain. However, when you look at the original account and why this valley became such a heinous symbol before God, it was a symbol of eternal destruction. Verse 7 says: "...their carcasses will I give to be meat for the fowls of heaven." There's no torture here. There's no consciousness. There are dead bodies here.

That's what we have. The New Testament Gehenna encompassed all of what we just discussed. It first became a place of heinous idolatry, as we were discussing, and then a place of death, defeat, and dishonor.

God proclaimed Gehenna to be a place of final and complete and disgraced destruction. The conclusion about this valley is there was no torment, but there was absolutely just utter destruction.

[Julie] (12:23 - 12:39) Okay, to sum up so far, Jesus used this Greek word "Gehenna," translated into English as "hell," and his listeners would have been familiar with this infamous location of death and destruction, and they would have understood what he meant. Now we have to deal with that phrase "unquenchable fire." That seems pretty eternal to me.

[Rick] (12:39 - 13:24) That's a good question. How do we deal with this "unquenchable fire?" This phrase, "unquenchable fire," fire that cannot be quenched, was very specifically used in several Old Testament scriptures. Its meaning was focused on a fire that would burn until its work was unequivocally completed. We're going to look at several examples, but the meaning was the fire burns until there's nothing left to burn. Once again, what we see is there is no torment, but there is just utter destruction. We've got two examples. The first of the two examples is the desolation of the city of Idumaea. Julie, let's go to Isaiah 34:8-10.

[Julie] (13:24 - 14:29) The Idumaeans were descendants of Jacob's brother Esau, known as the Edomites. Idumaea is a Greek name for Edom, and Herod the Great, who tried to kill the infant Jesus, was an Idumaean. Verse 8 starts with: "For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams will be turned into pitch (that means tar or asphalt) and its loose earth into brimstone (brimstone is sulfur), and its land will become burning pitch." Rick, fire destroys what it consumes. Brimstone--kind of an old-fashioned word--that intensifies the destructive aspect when it's added to fire because sulfur fumes are toxic and they're deadly. Fire and brimstone together symbolically emphasize a complete destruction, the severity of the outcome. We continue with verse 10: "It will not be quenched (meaning extinguished) night or day; its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; none will pass through it forever and ever." Well, here we go, this burning will never be quenched, never be extinguished.

[Rick] (14:30 - 15:25) This text, this scripture in Isaiah 34:8-10, has both literal and prophetic fulfillment. You had that literal battle that you were talking about, but it talks about it in verse 8; "The Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense..." and you look at that and we see those words and very, very frequently they are showing something that was happening at the time and showing something that would happen in the future. We know that the time of the end is a day of great, great destruction. We can see that fitting into this kind of descriptiveness. Here's the thing; this "unquenchable fire" represented full and complete judgment of sin. The people were sinful and they were wiped out, they were annihilated. I appreciate the way you put it; when you put fire and brimstone or fire and sulfur together, nothing lives. Everything dies. That is what we need to see here. We have this fire, this "unquenchable fire," burning.

[Julie] (15:25 - 15:32) Was it still burning today? I'm going to say we know for sure it's not, from present-day archaeological digs of where the Idumaeans lived.

[Rick] (15:32 - 15:42) It's not still burning today. We are believers in scripture and the scripture says it will burn forever, but it's not still burning. What do you do with that?

[Julie] (15:43 - 15:43) Yeah...

[Rick] (15:43 - 16:04) The answer is very simple. You use the words the way they were meant to be used. "Unquenchable" was meant to be used as a fire that would burn until its work was done. You have complete, utter, overwhelming destruction. No torment, just utter destruction.

[Julie] (16:05 - 16:14) I think today we would say, "I have an unquenchable thirst" to describe when we're really thirsty. I mean, am I forever thirsty? No, it's just until I drink something.

[Rick] (16:14 - 16:14) Right.

[Julie] (16:14 - 16:23) You've heard an unquenchable desire for knowledge, you want more and more. Jesus uses Old Testament examples to create New Testament teachings.

[Rick] (16:23 - 16:57) That's a very powerful thought to keep in mind all the time. Folks, look, we're not just saying in this one subject we're going to make sure we stick with the Old Testament phraseology. We constantly do that.

We look at Old Testament words and we bring them into the New Testament and say, okay, the meaning doesn't change. The lesson expands, but the meaning doesn't change. The thing is, there is no hint of eternal torment here.

Let's go to another example, the overthrow of the Jews and the laying of waste of Judea by Nebuchadnezzar and the Chaldeans in Ezekiel 20:47-48:

[Julie] (16:57 - 17:26) "...and say to the forest of Negev, Hear the word of the LORD: thus says the Lord GOD, Behold, I am about to kindle a fire in you, and it will consume every green tree in you, as well as every dry tree; the blazing flame will not be quenched and the whole surface from south to north will be burned by it. All flesh shall see that I, the LORD, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched." Well, is this blazing flame still burning today?

[Rick] (17:26 - 17:49) No! You say, why? Well, look at the way the scripture reads: I will "say to the forest..." Now there's the big hint. God is saying, I will "say to the forest" this is what's going to happen. There's going to be a fire and it will "consume every green tree" as well as "every dry tree." It is unquenchable because nobody could put it out. If you've ever had a wildfire that couldn't be put out, what ends up happening?

[Julie] (17:50 - 17:51) Everything gets destroyed.

[Rick] (17:51 - 18:14) Then the fire goes out because there's nothing left for it to consume. It's not still burning today. Why? Because the "unquenchable fire" did exactly what it was there for. No torment, just utter destruction.

These are the examples that help us understand the language that Jesus uses when we jump into the New Testament.

[Julie] (18:15 - 18:25) Just a side note, Isaiah 1:31, Jeremiah 4:4, and Amos 5:6 also promise "unquenchable fires" that have long ago burned out.

[Rick] (18:25 - 18:49) For us to say they're "unquenchable fires" is entirely appropriate. Just like you said, somebody has unquenchable laughter or unquenchable thirst. It's beyond control until it runs out of gas, until something happens.

With the forest fires, the forest burns until it's burned and then there's nothing left to burn and it's done. This is what these scriptures are telling us. We need to now take steps forward beyond this.

Go ahead.

[Julie] (18:50 - 19:12) There's definitely Old Testament references, is what we're saying, to God's wrath in conjunction with fire, brimstone, worms. But nothing is said or hinted at this eternal conscious torture for not believing in Jesus as a ransom sacrifice now in this lifetime. Think about the millions of people who lived before Jesus.

God never promised to torture them eternally for being born too early.

[Rick] (19:12 - 19:48) Right. We have to put the concept of eternal flames into the context of scripture as a whole. You can't take the new without the old.

You can't take the old without the new. You have to put them together. Jesus spent a lot of time quoting the Old Testament, a lot of time.

As we will see in these instances, he's quoting the Old Testament. He's going back to what already was established. Let's go a little further.

John the Baptist, speaking of Jesus and using the same symbolic Old Testament language, introduces "unquenchable fire" into the New Testament in Matthew 3:12.

[Julie] (19:49 - 20:25) Let me give you a little context. In the previous verses, John had just said that someone (Jesus) is coming after him who is so much more mighty than John, that John isn't even fit to remove his sandals. Jesus would baptize with the holy spirit and fire (two different things). "Baptism of fire" means judgment and trouble. Now we read verse 12: "His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will thoroughly clear his threshing floor; and he will gather his wheat into the barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." "Unquenchable fire." What "chaff" and is this fire still burning today?

[Rick] (20:25 - 22:20) Okay, the "chaff"-- John is talking about what's going to happen to the nation of Israel. He is there to pave the way for Jesus and he's talking about there will be many that reject Jesus and the nation itself will be destroyed and we know that that was going to happen. Is this fire still burning today? No! You have no idea of--well wait, where did the fire even burn? Because John is talking in symbolic language. As the nation, there will be those who are "wheat" that are drawn to Jesus to be part of his true church, part of "the body of Christ" that will bless all of mankind. But the nation itself would end up being "chaff" and be destroyed. It is not still burning today. John's showing us what was to come as Israel would reject Jesus and therefore be destroyed as a nation.

That happened. That literally happened in A.D. 70. There was no nation of Israel after that.

It was literally destroyed. When you see the idea of fire, meaning it either purifies or destroys, you see John was giving a prophecy that the nation would be destroyed. That destruction was complete, total, and utter until--remember we always say the fire burns until it's done and there's nothing left to burn, the fire burned, it went out because there's nothing left--until the time when God calls the "dry bones" of Israel to life. Now what do we mean by that? You go into Ezekiel 37 and you have this "valley of dry bones." That means there's nothing alive. Yet God calls these "dry bones" back to life. It's a picture of Israel as a nation coming back to life.

They were destroyed as "chaff" and then later at the appropriate time God brings them back to life. It's a beautiful picture of what "unquenchable" actually means. Now let's go back to Jesus' own words regarding "unquenchable" related to the language of that day. Let's go back to Mark 9:43 just to put this back in perspective:

[Julie] (22:20 - 22:32) "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, (remember that's Gehenna, the original Valley of Hinnom) into the unquenchable fire..."

[Rick] (22:32 - 23:41) Jesus is using "unquenchable fire." We talked about that at the very beginning of this episode. We're going back to it now to look at it and understand it and explain it.

We've talked about "unquenchable fire" unequivocally showing this utter complete destruction. Total destruction is the biblical end for whom? For the incorrigible, for the absolutely sinful.

Both Old and New Testaments attest to this. Had it not been for Jesus, the Old Testament destruction of any people--remember those peoples that were destroyed in those fires-- had it not been for Jesus, their destruction would have been forever, would have been eternal. But Jesus came, he paid the price, he paid the ransom, and every human being therefore has the opportunity to come back to life. When Jesus talks about you who are following me, if you go off track, it's better for you to stop whatever you're doing if it even hurts you, so that you don't end up in a very, very, very untenable, disloyal, ungodly circumstance into that destructive fire. Again, no torment, just utter destruction.

[Julie] (23:42 - 23:47) Your point is, in the Old Testament, "unquenchable" meant until it's quenched for a time.

[Rick] (23:47 - 23:53) Well, until it runs out of fuel. "Unquenchable" is until the work is done.

[Julie] (23:53 - 24:06) Okay. Jesus isn't changing the meaning of the word when he used it, and "hell" is "Gehenna," a place historically of death and destruction. What about those worms that never die? Are there really these magic worms that live forever?

[Rick] (24:06 - 24:23) Alright. What about the worms that never die? When we look at this, let's go back again to Mark 9:48 --now that's attached to the scriptures we read right at the beginning of the podcast that's attached to March 9:43 that we just read. Let's take a look at that scripture as a basis for beginning to understand it:

[Julie] (24:23 - 24:26) "...where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED."

[Rick] (24:26 - 24:51) You've got both of those things together. The worms don't die and "the fire is not quenched." First of all, we know a fire and being not quenched means it just isn't put out, it goes out when it's done. When you have worms that don't die, you can get a sense that there is a connection in meaning. We know that because what Jesus is saying here he's not making up. He is quoting from Isaiah 66:23-24:

[Julie] (24:52 - 24:58) "And it shall be from new moon to new moon and from sabbath to sabbath, all mankind will come to bow down before Me, says the LORD..."

[Rick] (24:59 - 25:09) Now hang on there, because this is obviously a future time. "All mankind" coming "to bow down" before the Lord. This is a prophecy of looking into the future. Go ahead.

[Julie] (25:09 - 25:38) Here's the hard part: "Then they will go forth and look on the corpses (that word "look" means "to see," literally or figuratively) of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." Just a quick observation; corpses are dead. The Hebrew word here means "carcass" and when used figuratively, it means an "idolatrous image." If someone were to take this literally, it doesn't include torture.

[Rick] (25:39 - 25:45) It does not. That's the most, most, most important thing. But it does say they will "look on the corpses of men who have transgressed against Me."

[Julie] (25:45 - 25:46) Yeah, what's that?

[Rick] (25:46 - 27:02) For their worm doesn't die, for the fire's not quenched. What it's saying is, because that word "look" is not necessarily physically "I see you," but when you see something in your mind, you understand it. It is the recollection of what sin produces. That recollection of what sin produces will never, ever, ever go away and that's how people will stay completely honoring and loyal to God our Father. You look upon that and you are reminded that death and destruction are the opposite, the end result. That's what Adam did. Adam sinned.

"Dying thou shalt die." That's where it all ends up. But Jesus came and gave everyone else a chance and now all mankind does bow down before God and they never forget the destructiveness of sin. This is a sad and age-lasting reminder of the destruction of those who ultimately stood against God. The point is, there is no torment, just utter destruction. We're saying the New Testament follows the Old Testament in teaching about complete destruction. We want to go through some examples, quickly, some New Testament examples about destruction. We're going to look at three or four different scriptures.

We're going to hear the words of Jesus, to hear the words of the Apostle Peter, and hear the words of the Apostle Paul. Julie, let's start with Matthew 10:28.

[Julie] (27:03 - 27:24) Okay, we'll read this again: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." That word "hell" is "Gehenna" and the word "destroy" here means "to destroy fully, to perish or lose." There's no sense of torture, as you would say, no torment, just utter destruction.

[Rick] (27:25 - 28:02) What Jesus is talking about here is, he's talking about an utter destruction that comes after he has ransomed you. He's talking about what Revelation labels as the second death. Interestingly, you know, in Revelation it says "the lake of fire is the second death." It tells us that it's death, it's not torture. Just saying. This is talking to Jesus' followers saying, once you have been justified, you will walk and you will be with me, but if you go down that road and you deny, you deny, you will be destroyed.

Not tortured, not tormented, not teased, not anything. You will be utterly destroyed. That's what the "Valley of Hinnom" was all about.

[Julie] (28:02 - 28:11) Okay, for more on this we would go to Episode #1237. It's called: "Will I Survive God's Final Judgment?" Lots of good details here we don't have time to go into now.

[Rick] (28:11 - 28:20) Let's go to our next scripture about destruction. Each time we go through one of these scriptures, we're introducing different words for "destruction" in the New Testament. Acts 3:23:

[Julie] (28:20 - 28:44) "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." Now this uses a different Greek word for "destroy," meaning "to extirpate." What does that mean?

"Extirpate" means: "to destroy completely, to wipe out, pull up from the root, to cut out by surgery." It's gone, dead, done. "Destroy" means destroy, no torment, just utter destruction.

[Rick] (28:45 - 28:58) That's the theme. Everywhere we turn, that's what we see. We see "Gehenna," the "Valley of Hinnom," is an ideal descriptive place to show exactly this. Two more scriptures, Julie. Matthew 7:13, let's start there.

[Julie] (28:58 - 29:23) Listen for the another Greek word for destruction. The word means: "ruin or loss." "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat..." I'll add Philippians 3:19 with that same word: "...whose end is destruction (ruin or loss), whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame..."

[Rick] (29:23 - 29:24) You know what's there, Julie?

[Julie] (29:25 - 29:26) I don't see torment.

[Rick] (29:26 - 29:28) But there is utter destruction.

[Julie] (29:28 - 29:28) That's right.

[Rick] (29:29 - 29:47) No torment, utter destruction. Folks, understand the scriptures from beginning to end have this theme and Jesus taught us that theme. The apostles, interestingly, picked up on the destruction thing again and again and again and again. Let's sum all of this up with another prophecy.

Let's go to Zephaniah 3:8, 9:

[Julie] (29:47 - 30:13) "Therefore wait for Me, declares the LORD, For the day when I rise up as a witness. Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out on them My indignation, all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal." Rick, if we didn't know any better, we would use this as eternal torment proof.

We've got "burning anger," "devoured by fire," "zeal."

[Rick] (30:14 - 30:24) Yeah, that's great, and you're right. You can stop there and say, see?! Then the next logical thing is say, yes, we see. Now let's read the rest of the verse, the same verse here, verse 9. Go ahead:

[Julie] (30:25 - 30:48) "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD, to serve Him shoulder to shoulder." Ah, well, there's the other function fire serves. It destroys, but it also can purify.

Once the dross is burned off, gold remains. "Purified lips" aren't calling on the Lord and serving Him while they're being eternally tortured year after year after year after year after year.

[Rick] (30:49 - 31:21) This is why we say eternal torture, eternal torment is not taught in Scripture. Look at the Scriptures as a whole. There's a theme.

Jesus picks up on the theme and expands it in a very dramatic way to show us the depth of the necessity of loyalty to God. Jesus taught the gospel based on the foundation of Old Testament teachings and fitting them together in relation to his mission--the call of the true church. His descriptions of utter destruction fit precisely with Jewish history and with prophetic writings.

[Julie] (31:22 - 31:33) God proclaimed the "Valley of Hinnom" to be known as the "Valley of Slaughter" and not the Valley of Torment for good reason, because it would depict the ultimate consequence for anyone who defies God to the very end.

[Rick] (31:33 - 32:14) No torment, just utter destruction. Folks, listen, this is such an important point to understand, to realize that the Old and New Testament work exclusively and primarily and perfectly in harmony with one another. Destruction was taught in the Old Testament.

Jesus taught it in the New Testament. Let's not get stuck in the traditions of men. Let's stick with the truth of scripture. Think about it. Folks, we love hearing from our listeners. We welcome your feedback and questions on this episode and other episodes at ChristianQuestions.com.

Coming up in our next episode: "What Did Jesus Mean When He Talked About Hellfire?" (Part 2)

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