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Announcer (00:00:00): It's time to think about the Bible like you never have before. This is Christian Questions. Experience more episodes, videos and Bible study resources at ChristianQuestions.com. Today's topic is, "What is the Biblical Process to Become Perfect?" Nobody's perfect. How many times have we heard that phrase when something gets messed up? Yet there are places in the Bible that tell us that we as Christians are supposed to be perfect. Isn't that beyond the reach of sinful human beings? What does it mean? What are we supposed to do now? Here's Rick and Jonathan.

Rick (00:00:34): Welcome everyone. I'm Rick. I'm joined by Jonathan, my co-host for over 25 years. Jonathan, what's our theme scripture for this episode?

Jonathan (00:00:43): Isaiah 11:9: "They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea."

Rick (00:00:55): God has an amazing plan that includes every human being who's ever lived. Rather than torturing billions for eternity in a fiery hell, this plan will give all of humanity a legitimate opportunity to be taught how to live in a godly and righteous way. We are saying that God's plan gives everyone an opportunity to become perfect in His sight. Now if you look around at the condition of our world, it's really easy to roll your eyes and think, well, with all that is happening, this plan of God's is pretty lame. Well, it does look that way, but the reality is that this plan works in specific stages. There is a perfecting work happening right now, but it's not focused on everyone. Our three-part series will walk through how and when Christians, non-Christians and all who have ever lived will have an opportunity for perfection. Before we break down the way perfection is established throughout all of God's creation, let's take a look at just one absolutely breathtaking scene in heaven that is prophesied in Revelation. This scene shows the results of God's plan for the perfecting of every level of His creation. Jonathan, I've read these scriptures many, many times before, but this time around, literally, this took my breath away. Let's look at Revelation 5:11-13:

Jonathan (00:02:25): "Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing. And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." This is talking about one hundred percent perfection in heaven and earth and pronouncing glory to both God and Jesus. All of God's creation reflects perfection. How do we get to this end result? We certainly need it!

Rick (00:03:24): How do we get there? When you meditate on the bigness of what this prophecy is saying, it really is amazing. The drama of the scene is beyond our human ability to comprehend. To even begin appreciating it, we need to be reminded of the history that God allowed His creation to experience. When we say His creation, we mean all of His creation. For instance--and this is going to be a rapid review if you will--first you have Lucifer, one of the high and lofty morning stars. He sinned and usurped God's authority and became Satan, who's called the "father of lies." We know that from Isaiah 14:12. It says, "How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations!" That is where things started.

Jonathan (00:04:15): Second, Adam sinned and was sentenced to death, and all of his posterity would follow. Genesis 2:16-17: "And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die." Adam began to die in that day and his life ends within that day. 2 Peter 3:8 tells us "A day with the Lord is like a thousand years." Adam lived 930 years, which is within one "day."

Rick (00:04:53): Those two scriptures, those two examples, that first and second show us a spiritual fall from perfection and an earthly fall from perfection, so you have it happening on all levels in God's creation. Well, now what? Well, God's plan for perfecting of all is squarely built on the foundation of Jesus. It's that simple. For Jesus to be this foundation, he had to do some pretty amazing things. First, Jesus, the Logos, the Word, had to be willing. There's a lot to be said for that phrase. He had to be willing. We get a sense of that prophetically in Isaiah 6:8-10:

Jonathan (00:05:39): "Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying, whom shall I send and who will go for Us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. And He said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." Well, we know this applied to Jesus because when he spoke to the average people, he quoted this Isaiah scripture in Matthew 13:13-15. This fulfilled prophecy. The main point is Jesus in heaven said to his Father, "Send me. I will go for you."

Rick (00:06:26): He also was saying, and I know what you are looking to have done, "seeing they will see and not perceive, hearing they will hear and not understand, lest they be converted." You have this very strange, it seems like a paradox. We need you to go save things. Okay, but I'm going to do it in a way that they won't understand. Wait, wait, wait. What's up with this? Well, this is all part of the bigness, the perfection, if you will, of God's plan. First Jesus, the Logos, had to be willing. Second, the Logos had to completely give up what he was to become the man Christ Jesus. Let's look at Philippians 2:5-7:

Jonathan (00:07:07): "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he existed in the form of God (a spiritual being), did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant (an earthly being), and being made in the likeness of men." Jesus walked away from his high position in heaven as God's only begotten son. He was the first recorded creation in the Bible. We find that in Proverbs 8:22-30.

Rick (00:07:40): He had to completely leave what he was. Jesus' human life began just like any other human life, except that he was God's own son, and he was born for the mission of saving humanity. That is why he was born as a human being. Let's look at very, very well-known verses, Jonathan, Luke 2:8-11:

Jonathan (00:08:08): "And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shown round about them: and they were sore afraid." Let me pause. Here is the proclamation from God through His angelic messenger. Verses 10-11: "And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord." The whole world has been waiting for a solution from sin and death, and God has made it clear by offering His son. Doesn't Revelation 13:8 picture Jesus as "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?"

Rick (00:09:01): "Here am I, send me." You've got that picture of things being in place before they needed to be in place because that is how God's plan worked. He had it preset. We've got Jesus now as a human being in this human state. Jesus, now he had to learn. Being a perfect human did not exempt him from growing into obedience to God's will over his own perfect human will. This is a big, big, big point here, Jonathan. Hebrews 5:7-10:

Jonathan (00:09:35): "In the days of his flesh, he offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his piety. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things which he suffered. And having been made perfect, he became to all those who obey him, the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek." Well wait, Rick, wasn't Jesus born a perfect child? How could he be perfect and be "made perfect?" That doesn't seem to make any sense.

Rick (00:10:15): You're right. A lot of times we look at that, and we think Jesus came to the earth and he was perfect, and everything was exactly, precisely in order the way it was supposed to be. Yet it says, "having been made perfect." Well, that word actually means "to complete, to accomplish, to consummate in character." The point of this was that Jesus as a perfect man needed to have the completion of a mature character grown into him, and he had to learn that.

Jonathan (00:10:50): That reminds me of Adam, Rick. He was a perfect man, and he was also a son of God.

Rick (00:10:58): Exactly. When you say, "As an Adam all die" and we're going to get to the scripture, "even so in Christ will all be made alive." I know you're going to read in a minute, but I couldn't resist. What you see is that equation that says son of God, perfection, son of God, perfection. There is evenness there that we need to understand. Jesus had to be perfected even though he was already perfect, he had to be completed. He had to consummate the reason for his life. That is really what it means. This learning and this humble sacrificing of his will provided the necessary ingredients for offering himself as this ransom. Let's go back to Philippians 2:8:

Jonathan (00:11:43): "Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Jesus was laser-focused on his mission.

Rick (00:11:57): He was "obedient even to the point of death, even the death on the cross." That obedience was more than just "yes sir, no sir, right away, sir." It was a heartfelt, complete, overwhelming loyalty. He had to learn the humility. He had to learn to put his human will aside for the will of God. This humility, this learning, and this obedience on all levels earn Jesus the right to be the ransom for all humanity. Now let's read 1 Corinthians 15:21-22:

Jonathan (00:12:32): "Since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

Rick (00:12:43): All die in Adam. Folks, say it with me. All die in Adam. All are raised in Jesus. That is fair. Perfect man for perfect man. Jesus learned obedience through his experiences. Adam had the opportunity to learn and did not. Perfect man for perfect man. Everybody else is stuck in between. We know everybody else is stuck in between when we read Romans 5:18-19:

Jonathan (00:13:14): "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one the many will be made righteous."

Rick (00:13:34): Can you see how everybody's stuck in between Adam and Jesus? Jesus had to be perfected even though he was perfect, had to be completed because he had to grow into that full manhood, if you will. Yes, Jesus was perfect and yes, he needed to be perfected. Both of those statements work incredibly well together when we understand what the words mean. Jonathan, God's Plan for Perfection for All Levels of His Creation: Where are we starting with this?

Jonathan (00:14:06): The magnitude of the mind of God is beyond us. However, God saw fit to give us His word, the Bible, so we can begin to comprehend it. For His plan to unfold, Jesus is the centerpiece at the beginning, the end, and in between. Let us realize and revere what Jesus did, what he learned and what he sacrificed as we strive to be faithful. We see in this process this perfection going on, even for those who are perfect.

Rick (00:14:41): That is the point. Jesus was being perfected even though he started out perfect because he had to be made complete. Understand the way God's plan works. When you take that principle and you apply it elsewhere, everything begins to open up in a really dramatic way. Jesus set a firm foundation upon which the magnitude of God's plan can unfold. The opportunities made available by his sacrifice are endless!

Jonathan (00:15:13): The fact that the Bible tells us Jesus had to be complete can sound surprising. What does it mean for our completion as disciples?

Rick (00:15:23): Well, the answer here can actually be pretty simple. If Jesus needed to be completed in his learning and experiences as a sinless man, we certainly have a ton of work to do. You see, we're called to follow. This means that we are called to go where he went, to grow as he grew, to offer our lives as best as we can as he did.

Jonathan (00:15:52): "Follow me" means become a learner. But in our case, Rick, we're all sinners and we fall short daily.

Rick (00:16:00): Yeah. We need to sort of work at rising above what we are. The interesting thing is, that is what Jesus did as well. He rose above what he was even though he was perfect, because he had to be a perfect man who was willing to be sacrificial and do God's will instead of the will of a perfect man. We are following in his footsteps, just on a lower level because obviously we can't be nearly what he was and now is. Let's again look ahead. We started out the podcast looking ahead with that revelation prophecy. Let's again look ahead to what the perfecting of the true disciples of Jesus brings, because this is exciting. Jonathan, this whole thing is exciting, but this is a good one, okay? Hebrews 2:9-11:

Jonathan (00:16:47): "But we do see him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

Rick (00:17:01): Alright. "Suffering of death crowned with glory and honor." Why? So he could taste death for everyone. There are so many scriptures that give us that big picture. We need to pause and consider what it all means. Let's continue with 10-11:

Jonathan (00:17:19): "For it was fitting for him (Jesus), for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings." Now, let's pause here. The followers of Jesus are becoming a part of something big; sons of glory. Rick, what does "perfect (complete) the author of their salvation" mean?

Rick (00:17:43): All right, so "to perfect" means "to complete." "Bringing many sons to glory," bringing those who are true followers of Jesus. "Perfects (completes) the author of their salvation." Well, who's the author? Hebrews 12:2: "Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith." What it's saying is that the true followers of Jesus complete him. Jonathan, think about that. They make him, and the New American Standard uses the word "perfect," they "perfect him." There's a tremendous connection which will actually develop as we go here. Let's go to verse 11:

Jonathan (00:18:23): "For both he who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason he is not ashamed to call them brethren..."

Rick (00:18:32): Again, look at the power of being a brother of Jesus. Hey, I want you to meet my older brother. His name is Jesus. Think about that! There's this incredible level that the followers that Jesus are raised to, and it has to do with a perfecting work. Let's outline our perfecting work according to scripture. Example; right after Peter proclaimed Jesus was the Messiah, here's what Jesus said. Jonathan, let's go to Luke 9:22-24:

Jonathan (00:19:02): "...the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day. And he was saying to them all, if anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake, he is the one who will save it."

Rick (00:19:28): There's no surprise here; a disciple is a follower. Jesus is saying, "You're going to follow me? Take up your cross daily and follow me." Taking up a cross was not a happy thing. It meant...

Jonathan (00:19:39): No, it's taking it to death, isn't it?

Rick (00:19:41): Yes, and it's a torturous death. He said, "This is the path I walk. You will follow that path." This was plainly an invitation to a life of sacrifice. Jesus expanded what that meant many, many times in his ministry. We just want to take a look at one of those expansions in Matthew 7:13-14:

Jonathan (00:20:01): "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Christian perfecting comes through sacrifice and walking on uncommon and difficult roads. That is why they're called saints. The Greek word for "saints" means "pure, sacred, blameless, and consecrated."

Rick (00:20:31): That sounds pretty perfect. Think about it. "Pure, sacred, blameless," that is pretty high. The Apostle Paul uses that word all the time in the New Testament to all the saints in Christ. You're saying, wait a minute, is this lifting? We're imperfect, but yet is this lifting us higher than we are? How is that possible? Let's go a little further. Before Jesus' crucifixion, he proclaimed to his Father that he had finished his challenging and self-sacrificing work. This is important. John 17:4-5 is his prayer in Gethsemane and it helps to put it all in perspective. Here's what he says to his Father about his own work:

Jonathan (00:21:14): "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished (or completed) the work which You have given me to do."

Rick (00:21:21): What he gives us is this sense of "I have finished, I have perfected, I have completed." That is that same word that we've been using all along. He says, "This is what I have done." Then further on in his prayer, he prayed for his followers to do what a disciple is supposed to do, and that is to follow their master. Listen to what he says now in his prayer in John 17:22-23:

Jonathan (00:21:49): "The glory which You have given me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as we are one; I in them and You in me, that they may be perfected (or completed) in unity, so that the world may know that You sent me, and love them, even as You have loved me." Question--does this mean that Jesus's true disciples are perfected now?

Rick (00:22:13): It does kind of sound like that, doesn't it? From what he's saying, he said, yes. But I'm going to add, no.

Jonathan (00:22:22): Perfect!

Rick (00:22:25): Yes, you're right. It is. Okay, how do you put all that together? How do we put all that together? Let's look at the "yes" part of being perfect now. That blows you away when you look at that, say, that is impossible. What are they talking about? We're talking about scripture, okay? Let's follow scripture, the "yes" part. As part of the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, Jesus taught us to love our enemies. Here's how he concluded that portion. Matthew 5:48:

Jonathan (00:22:53): "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Perfect like God? It's hard to get your head around, Rick.

Rick (00:23:03): It is, it is. It's incredibly hard to get your head around, but that is what he says. "Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect." Now, what does perfect mean here?

Jonathan (00:23:14): Well, this is a different form of the word for "perfect" than we've been using. The first form was a verb, an action word. This word is a noun, a state of being, which means "complete in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character."

Rick (00:23:30): Great. That is even worse. Be complete as God is complete. But let's put it in context, Jonathan, because in these verses Jesus says, "God (and I'm going to do a lot of paraphrasing) causes the sun to rise on the good and on the evil. The rain falls on both the good and evil." In other words, God is balanced. He loves all. "Be ye complete," be of a complete character like God is in relation to everyone else. Don't be picking and choosing. I'll love this one but not that. That is not what God does. The "perfection" here is in relation to how we view the world around us. "Be ye perfect." Be ye complete, love others as our Father has shown us He loves others. Let's continue with James 1:2-4:

Jonathan (00:24:27): "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." You mean, I can be perfect now?

Rick (00:24:45): Isn't that what it's saying?

Jonathan (00:24:47): It is.

Rick (00:24:47): Okay, but it's that same word, that same noun. Be ye complete, be ye complete. Let your faith produce endurance. Let endurance have its complete results so that you might be complete, lacking nothing. That you might have that sense of well-roundedness, nothing lacking in your character. That is what it means. Folks, what we're suggesting to you is that the words that are used for "perfect" aren't this pristine picture of every single part of your life. But they are very specific descriptions of specific parts of our lives that we need to be working to be complete and mature in. These are ways, Jonathan, yes, that we are supposed to be perfect. Funny thing though, James, in chapter 3 - now in chapter 1 he says, "Be perfect," okay, "that you might be made perfect, complete, lacking nothing." In chapter 3 he tells us it's impossible for you to be perfect. Let's go to that James 3:1-2:

Jonathan (00:25:52): "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well." Well, which is it?

Rick (00:26:11): Well, look, have you ever known anybody to not stumble in his speech or her speech in terms of other people?

Jonathan (00:26:21): No, everyone has stumbled.

Rick (00:26:23): Right. James is saying we're all that way. We're not perfect men. It's like, well wait, you just said we are supposed to be, and now you're saying we're not. Yes, both are true because what it's talking about is different aspects of our Christian life. He's saying it's really hard to be complete in our speech and that is why he has his whole chapter about the "power of the tongue," because it's such a difficult thing to master. So yes, we should strive for "completeness" in these very specific areas of life and realize that we aren't. You said, "well, which is it?" Well, it's both. It really is both. We are complete in the sense of having all that we need to grow in Christ. Now that is an important phrase. We are complete in the sense of having all that we need to grow in Christ. That is borne out for us in Romans 5:1-5. Let's do 1-2 first:

Jonathan (00:27:24): "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God." What does it mean to be "justified by faith?" It's being made right before God, holy and clean. Continuing with verses 3-5: "And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the holy spirit which was given to us."

Rick (00:28:09): Justification, like you were talking about, brings God's spirit; and these two things make us complete in the eyes of God.

Jonathan (00:28:24): I love it. It's like a mathematical equation. We have everything we need. Justified plus the spirit equals accountability. That is amazing.

Rick (00:28:35): It is. But now go to work, okay?

Jonathan (00:28:38): You're right, you're right.

Rick (00:28:40): We're given these complete things. Justification is a complete forgiveness for the past, complete in Christ. It's wiped out. God's spirit is His powerful, perfect, complete influence working in our lives. We have these things that are complete within us, but still we have to do the work, still we have to develop, still we have to grow up in Christ. Hebrews 5:13-14:

Jonathan (00:29:07): "For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. But solid food is for the mature (or complete), who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil."

Rick (00:29:22): "Solid food is for the mature." That word is the same word used for "perfect" in that earlier James scripture. It's showing us that the perfection is the completeness of growing up, of the changing, of being transformed by the renewing of your mind. That is the completeness that we're being drawn to in Christ. We're given those perfect things as a basis. We have to grow up and create those other perfect things within us by God's grace, by maturing, by becoming complete. So both of those things; are we perfect? Are we not perfect? Yes, absolutely. God's Plan for Perfection for All Levels of His Creation; where are we so far?

Jonathan (00:30:03): The calling to follow Jesus is a calling to trial, challenge, growth, sacrifice and loyalty to God. All of this comes with the tools necessary for success. Christian perfection, Christian maturity is a combination of what God has given us by way of justification and His spirit and what we give to God by way of our reverence and our will. Let us stand with God's tools in hand and with our hearts and minds focused on using them. Rick, have we as followers of Christ been given a perfect beginning like Jesus and Adam with the tools of justification and the holy spirit?

Rick (00:30:48): Yes. We have been given an absolutely complete beginning. It's a no-fail beginning, but we have to do the work so the no-fail can stay in place. See, that is what we're given. Adam was given a no-fail beginning. He just didn't do the work. Jesus was given a no-fail beginning and he did the work. That is what we are given. We're given that same basis to work from. It's thrilling and a little bit scary to realize how all of this fits together and the responsibility of being a Christian. God's expectations are high for those called to follow Jesus. Seeing Christian growth in this way can be a scary proposition.

Jonathan (00:31:32): What happens to our maturity when we are overwhelmed by trials and difficulties? Do these challenges mean we are losing ground?

Rick (00:31:42): This is a good question, as it can be easy for us to lose heart when facing hard or prolonged experiences. It's always appropriate to remember that if we are disciples of Jesus, then God sees us as a complete individual from the standpoint of having all that we need to overcome. See, God sees us through different eyes that we do. Jonathan, when we sin and we mess up, we get so down on ourselves, maybe something happens, maybe you lose your job or you make a mistake or whatever, and you're like, man. You feel like such a failure. God doesn't see us that way if we've got His spirit and we're really working at developing. He sees us as that perfected "new creature" of 1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians talks about. He sees us as that individual that is going to grow into things because He gave us the perfect tools so that we can grow into a completed character. Trials come in many, many, many different ways. No matter where they come from, we are being taught to see them as a part of the grand perfecting that God is working in our lives. Trials, we want to focus on that now in this segment. Let's go back to James 1. This time let's add a few more verses. Let's go James 1:2-6:

Jonathan (00:33:08): "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect (or complete) result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing. But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind."

Rick (00:33:41): Here we have this verse that talks about "let endurance have its complete results" so that we can be "complete, lacking in nothing." God's perfect work in us is stimulated by adversity. That is how His perfection is stimulated in us. We want the end result to be powerful and overcoming endurance. That is what we're striving for. When struggling, we need to seek God's wisdom. That is what we added these verses in James this time. We need to seek God's wisdom to help us see the real reasons for our hardships so that we can go through and be perfected by the experience. We need to look for what God sees in our hardships, not what we feel in our hardships.

Jonathan (00:34:27): When we go through hardship, is God just punishing us for something? No, He's preparing us for something!

Rick (00:34:35): Well said. It's not a punishment, it's a preparation. Am I looking at it as a punishment or am I looking at it as a preparation? If it's a preparation, it's actually something to be excited about because it's the perfecting work. Some trials can creep up on us and progress from being simple distractions to spiritual disasters. Let's take a look at 2 Corinthians 6, and Jonathan, we're going to pick and choose through some verses here, verses 14-15 and verses 17-18:

Jonathan (00:35:05): "Do not be bound together with unbelievers...what fellowship has light with darkness? ...what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate, says the Lord. And do not touch what is unclean; and I will welcome you. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty." The very next verse in 2 Corinthians 7:1 says: "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." Now this word for "perfecting" is a verb and means "to fulfill further or complete what you started."

Rick (00:35:51): Okay, I like that. "To complete what you started." "Cleanse ourselves from the defilement of the flesh" and spirit, completing what you started. That is the holiness of God. Again, this is another word, it's a very similar word and it says "perfecting," but what it means is the act of finishing what you started because it is a godly objective that you are working on. The work of being perfected as a disciple of Christ requires a repetitive awareness of those things that would hinder our spiritual focus and an appropriate cleansing back to a holy state of being. In 2 Corinthians, the apostle is talking to the Corinthian church. They had a lot of very basic problems and he's saying "you need to be about the work of finishing what you started in relation to your holiness to God."

Jonathan (00:36:48): The value and privilege of the forgiveness in Christ can keep us moving forward.

Rick (00:36:54): It can and it should, if we let it. If we are about the work of perfecting, of completing what God has started in us--and we have to put effort into that - it will put us in a better position. We go back to the Apostle Paul all the time because his example is so dramatic. Paul's experience with that thorn in the flesh that he had teaches us a very, very valuable perfecting lesson. We read these verses a lot. Let's go back to them again. 2 Corinthians 12:7-10. Let's start with 7 through the first half of 9:

Jonathan (00:37:30): "Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself! Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. And He has said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected (or completed) in weakness." Paul was vulnerable in sharing this because of his potential pride. The Lord said "no" to healing him to keep him humble. Continuing with verses 9-10: "Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions and difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong."

Rick (00:38:31): Think about that. "For when I am weak, then I am strong." How is that possible? Because he said Jesus words to him, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected (it's completed) in weakness." Paul is saying, "Okay, I have the work of perfecting within me that works best because I'm weak If I let that power go to work and be transformative." What's the Apostle Paul's message? He's saying our weakness is the tool of God's strength, His completeness, His perfecting of our lives. Thank God we're weak. That is what he's saying, because that is where the perfecting work can actually have its glory shown. Here's the key, Jonathan; get out of the way when this is happening. Let God's spirit be the guide instead of me trying to think it through and try to do it my way. Rely on scriptural principles, rely on those things that are higher so that we can be perfected. That is the key, that we can be completed. The perfecting work of discipleship cannot function without a proper awareness of Jesus and without an effective prayer life because of that awareness. Let's look at Hebrews 4:14-16. We're going to just kind of stop after each verse:

Jonathan (00:40:03): "Therefore, since we have a great high priest who was passed through the heavens, Jesus the son of God, let us hold fast our confession."

Rick (00:40:13): You realize that in this verse--now this is leading up to a very powerful prayer verse. It begins by saying, "Jesus the son of God," he's our "high priest." Focus on him because he gives you the strength. What did he just say to the Apostle Paul? "My strength is perfected in your weakness." It's good, it's okay. Focus on him first. Verse 15:

Jonathan (00:40:39): "For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin."

Rick (00:40:48): Why do we focus on Jesus? Because he did the work exactly the way he was supposed to and he never faltered and he never wavered, and he always had his face set like a flint and always moved forward. That, my friends, is pure inspiration. It's pure example to say, "Look at what we are following. How glorious is that?" When you have the example of Jesus as the high priest and the example of Jesus in the perfecting work of his own human life, what does verse 16 say?

Jonathan (00:41:24): "Therefore, let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."

Rick (00:41:34): Then we go to God because we have our Lord and all that he has done and in the perfecting of his own life, learning obedience through the things he suffered, being perfected by his experiences. That is the example. Our prayer life can really, really flourish when we allow it to rely on that as a basis. It's very, very, very powerful. Folks, the whole point is we must be perfected in this life. Again, remember the word "perfected" doesn't mean squeaky clean without anything possibly wrong with you, but complete in each area of our lives as best as we can. Proceed with God's perfecting work because there's nothing more important in your life. Philippians 1:3-6:

Jonathan (00:42:22): "I thank my God in all my remembrance of you, always offering prayer with joy in my every prayer for you all, in view of your participation in the gospel from the first day until now. For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Rick, this is that word that says "complete what you started," so let's remember that. He will continue to fulfill that good work to complete right now and in the future.

Rick (00:42:55): Right. He who began a good work will finish what He started. Okay, so you look at that and you say, "Okay, well, God's going to finish what he started." Yeah, but this is talking about in you. He's going to finish what He started, the perfecting, the completion of your character so it can be honoring to Him. He will finish what He started. Don't get in His way. That is what part of the perfecting work of being a follower of Christ tells us. That is in Philippians 1. Well, in two chapters later, Paul picks up on this perfecting work again. Now we're in Philippians 3:13-16:

Jonathan (00:43:34): "Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect (now here's that word for complete again), have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; however, let us keep living by the same standard to which we have attained."

Rick (00:44:06): "This one thing I do...I press toward the goal for the prize of this upward call." As many of us as are perfected, as are complete. Again, can we be perfect in this life? Well, you look at that and the Apostle Paul is saying so. What does he mean though? Being completed in character in each area of our lives, bringing it to a level that is acceptable unto God by God's grace, not by our own efforts. You know what, Jonathan, in doing this study, what amazed me is how often these words for "perfect" pop up in scripture. They're like everywhere. They're all over the place. It gives us a sense of the loftiness of what we are striving for here. Wrapping this piece up, God's Plan for Perfection for All Levels of His Creation. We're talking just about the perfecting of the true followers of Jesus at this point. What do we have?

Jonathan (00:45:01): We have trials. They're specifically given to those who are complete, who are justified, and who have God's spirit as an exercise for our completeness. We are complete by God's grace, and yet we need to be completed through our development. Let the trials come and the perfecting work continue.

Rick (00:45:23): I like what you said. We are complete by God's grace and yet we need to be completed through our development. Both are true. Both are an honorable place for us to be living. Knowing we're being perfected through our life experiences can make our trials and challenges and distractions and disasters look like providential steppingstones.

Jonathan (00:45:47): Having all this perfecting work going on within ourselves is one thing. How does it work in relation to the brotherhood?

Rick (00:45:56): Understanding completeness in our discipleship is not possible without fully considering how we're integrated into the body of Christ. By definition, what I work on in my own individual growth experiences can positively relate to the other body members with whom I can associate. The simple fact is that we are in this together and we need to support one another. Jonathan, as we go through this now and look at the relationship of Christian to Christian, if you will, we're going to introduce one more "perfect" word in a couple of different forms. There's a bunch of them. Okay, one more "perfect" word to end with. This is going to be in 1 Corinthians 1:10:

Jonathan (00:46:45): "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." This word for "perfectly joined together" is a verb and it means "to complete thoroughly; that is, repair (literally or figuratively), to mend what has been broken."

Rick (00:47:13): I love this word. Those three words, those three English words "perfectly joined together" are all from that one word;" to mend what is been broken, to complete thoroughly." You get this sense that wherever we come from, we have to find this mending, this being perfectly joined together. Even though we may see things through different eyes and perspectives, and often we do, we are to be firmly and completely united in our direction. Folks, it doesn't mean that we put aside the way we see certain things. Jonathan, just before the podcast, you and I were talking about some certain circumstances that we see differently.

Jonathan (00:47:56): Yes.

Rick (00:47:56): Your response to me was, "That's okay, it's okay. I can still love you even though you're wrong."

Jonathan (00:48:02): No, I did not say that!

Rick (00:48:03): I know you didn't say that. I know you didn't say that. But the point is that we work together. We support one another, "perfectly joined together," "that there be no divisions among you." Doesn't mean that you're mirrors of one another, but it means that we're walking in the same direction, unified. The work of discipleship has a built-in system of perfecting that provokes maturity. There's a system and it's already built in and it's going to provoke maturity. It's going to provoke perfection. I bet you want to know what it is. Well, hang on because we've got the scripture right here. Ephesians 4:11-14:

Jonathan (00:48:41): "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;" Why was this? "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:" This is another word for "perfect;" the noun form meaning "complete furnishing, equipping." Let's continue: "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the son of God, unto a perfect (or complete) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive."

Rick (00:49:27): There's a lot in those verses. The "perfecting" of the saints - a good word is "equipping." You've got apostles, prophets, evangelist, pastors, teachers there for the specific purpose of giving us the equipping to do the work of perfecting. But here's the thing, what are you perfecting? It says coming "unto a perfect complete man." That is one man even though there's many of us. What does that mean? It means that we are the body of Christ. The work that we do has to be drawing us. It's like magnetism. It has to be drawing us together to fit where we belong so that we are this perfect complete body of Christ. As disciples of Christ we're to be completely united in faith as part of that complete body. This work of perfection is not easy.

Jonathan (00:50:21): Rick, if we can't work with the body of Christ now, how could we possibly work with them throughout eternity? This is a wakeup call.

Rick (00:50:29): It is, it is. It's something that we have to be really, really alert to and say, I need to do my part. What is my part? How do I support, how do I encourage, how do I potentially lead or how do I potentially follow in terms of the whole body working together? Let's keep that theme as we move forward. This perfect unity, this complete unity strives to acknowledge all members, all members of the body as equally vital. They do different things, but they're equally vital. You all know these verses 1 Corinthians 12:12-16:

Jonathan (00:51:05): "For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves are free, and we were all made to drink of one spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body, it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body, it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body."

Rick (00:51:43): You have one body, one spirit. That is the perfection of Christianity as it's supposed to be. The question we have to ask ourselves is, "How am I fitting into all of this?" Sometimes Jonathan, we have the trial of comparing one to another, and this one looks at that one and says, "Oh, well I can't be faithful because I can't be like that." Yeah, and you're nodding your head like, don't go there.

Jonathan (00:52:09): Yeah, we really shouldn't do that.

Rick (00:52:11): Well, and you know what, the thing is that we supplement each other and that is the key. Look, Jonathan, you and I are very, very different in a lot of ways.

Jonathan (00:52:21): Yes.

Rick (00:52:21): We are very similar in a lot of ways.

Jonathan (00:52:23): Yep.

Rick (00:52:25): Our differences help us to be able to work together. Imagine if you were like me, we'd just be beating each other down or something.

Jonathan (00:52:34): You wouldn't get a word in edgewise!

Rick (00:52:37): But we work so well together by God's grace, by just trying to daily humbly accept the strengths of the other to build us up so that we can do the work that God has put before us. It's attempting to work as a body, as a unit together for the glory of God. The perfecting work of discipleship requires humility and focused faith for its completion. None of this works without humility in a very focused faith. Let's look at 1 Peter 5:6-11:

Jonathan (00:53:13): "Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time, casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you. Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world."

Rick (00:53:41): It's saying, okay, you're having a hard time and you're working on casting your care upon the Lord, and it's difficult. Where's the encouragement? The encouragement is that you go through the same things I do. I can be encouraged because you're being weighed down in the same ways. We are walking the same path. There's such an encouragement, a completion work by looking at and sharing in the trials of the brotherhood. Let's continue with verses 10-11:

Jonathan (00:54:14): "After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen, and establish you. To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen." Working together in Christ makes us complete.

Rick (00:54:33): That word for "perfect" is "to complete thoroughly, to repair, to mend." Makes us pull things together that may not have been. There's an active process of moving forward and drawing them together. It's such an important thing here. When we look at all of this--again, perfecting has all of these different aspects and is very, very vital in the life of any true Christian. What's the absolute end result of all of this perfecting work that we've been talking about? Well, here's the thing. There is a glorious work ahead. There's a glorious work ahead that includes the perfecting of the entire human race.

Jonathan (00:55:14): This is why we do what we do. Actually, this is a preview of Part II. Romans 8:18-21: "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God." The creation, meaning the rest of mankind, waits for us so that they can have their turn in their perfecting work in God's kingdom.

Rick (00:56:04): That is coming in Part II. But Jonathan, the beauty of this is that those called to follow Jesus now are called to live that life of sacrifice, that life of difficulty, that life of trial, that life of falling down and having to get up again, that life of being potentially persecuted and ridiculed and cast aside because of your faith in Christ. All of that is not just to say, "Hey, I'm going to be faithful anyway." It's to follow in Jesus' footsteps. He was perfect in his development. He was complete in his development so he could pay the price for Adam. We can't pay the price for Adam, but we can work with Jesus in the reconciliation BECAUSE he paid the price for Adam. That is what this Romans 8 verse is telling us. The creation is subject to futility because that is what sin brings. But God has a plan beyond that. Part II goes into how that works. Folks, you do not, you do not want to miss that. On the side of looking at this perfecting work and where does it bring us individually and collectively as the body of Christ, there is a wonderful and unimaginable reward that is available through God's grace. We get a glimpse, a little tiny glimpse of that in the Parable of the Talents, right at the end of the Parable of the Talents. Remember they're given different numbers of talents and they report back to the master when the master returns. Well, this is the five-talented individual coming back and reporting in. Jonathan, Matthew 25:20-21:

Jonathan (00:57:42): "And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His Lord said to him, well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou has been faithful over a few things, I will make thee a ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of the Lord." We have been given a mission and if faithful we will receive a "well done" and mission accomplished. But there's more. The Lord then gives us greater things to do in His service, to bless and help mankind in their perfecting work.

Rick (00:58:26): Again, that comes in Part II, but Jonathan, have you ever thought about hearing those kinds of words? "Well done, good and faithful servant?" It just...

Jonathan (00:58:38): It's our hope, isn't it?

Rick (00:58:40): It is. It kind of melts me to think about just how profound and how magnificent and undeserved all of that is. Yet that is the reward that is promised to those who follow Jesus, who are given God's spirit, and have been justified. They've been given that perfect beginning to do the perfecting of their lives so that they can hear that "well done,, good and faithful servant." It blows my mind. Let's wrap this up, Jonathan. God's Plan for Perfection for All Levels of Creation; and again, we're focusing in on true disciples right now.

Jonathan (00:59:21): The perfecting of Jesus's disciples is a present-day work that requires time, attention, humility, discipline, change, and a whole lot of prayer. The standard to which we strive may seem impossible, yet God has already completely equipped us with everything we need. Our job is to use this complete equipping and develop towards becoming a contributory part of the complete body of Christ.

Rick (00:59:52): We're given the things that are necessary, that are complete already. We're given justification; that is a complete wiping out of our past. We're given God's spirit, which is the perfect, powerful influence of God to work within us. Those two things are complete in themselves. That means we have the ingredients for making that calling and that election to be sure. What we do with that is the perfecting work in our lives as we go. Folks, next week we're going to pick up with the perfecting of the everybody else. Like we've mentioned in John 5:28-29. It says, "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, and those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment." That scripture helps us to understand that there's more coming for the everybody else. When we look at what we've talked about today, the perfecting of the followers of Jesus, we realize that the everybody else have a dependence on those that were already perfected. Next week we look at how the two parts work together, all for the glory of God through Christ. Think about it. Folks, we love hearing from our listeners. We welcome your feedback and questions on this episode and other episodes at ChristianQuestions.com. Again, coming up in our next episode, "What's the Biblical Process to Become Perfect for the World of Mankind?" Coming up next week, we'll talk to you then.

Final Notes (01:01:24): copyright @2023 Christian Questions. In addition to this transcript, we provide comprehensive CQ Rewind Show Notes for every episode. They include every scripture quoted during the podcast, as well as graphics, illustrations and bonus material. Click the "CQ Rewind Show Notes" button near the audio player or sign up to receive these weekly at ChristianQuestions.com. This transcript was created using artificial intelligence. While we believe it to be accurate, we apologize for any errors that may exist.