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Announcer (00:00:01): It is time to think about the Bible like you never have before. This is Christian Questions. After this episode, go to ChristianQuestions.com to check out other episodes, Bible study resources, videos, download the CQ app and more. Today's topic is, "Does Biblical Truth Really Make Us Free?" Coming up in this episode, freedom in Christ can be an elusive thing. We generally don't think too much about it until we feel trapped under the weight of some challenge or tragedy. What can we do to escape this entrapment? One helpful step is listening to a true story of someone who had a pretty good life going, then they were hit with something they never saw coming. How did they find their way out? Here's Rick Suraci.

Rick (00:00:45): Welcome everyone. My co-host, Jonathan, is off this week. Our theme scripture for this episode is John 8:31-32: "So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed him, If you continue in my word, then you are truly disciples of mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." Today we want to talk about freedom. Not freedom in the sense of being released from some form of physical captivity, and not freedom in the sense of being able to express yourself without fear. No, no. The freedom we want to discuss and focus on is bigger and deeper. It is the freedom that we can be given when we are drawn to God through Christ and find our way to becoming a true disciple. Some may look at this and think, well, that's not really freedom, because discipleship requires being told what to do and how to do it. Well, that observation is absolutely true, but it's incomplete. True discipleship does have a high cost, and the reason for that cost is to ensure an eternity of freedom in Christ and a dwelling place with our Heavenly Father. It is a price well worth it. It is true freedom. Today we will tell you the story of a dear friend of ours and brother in Christ, Howie Clare. Howie lives on the other side of the world, literally on the other side. We met him through our Christian Questions podcast several years ago, and his story is a striking example of how God's providence works through hard experiences to draw us closer to Him. Howie has had some amazingly difficult experiences. He is here to share them with us today. Howie, thanks so much for joining Christian Questions today.

Howie (00:02:20): Hey there, Rick. It's great to be here and chatting to you again as always.

Rick (00:02:24): Howie, where are you from, exactly?

Howie (00:02:27): I live in New Zealand. It's not connected to Australia. I just want to make that clear to our listeners. Yep. So no, a long, long way from you, definitely.

Rick (00:02:37): So, literally on the other side of the world and on the upside-down side of the world, I might add, but that's a whole different story. One of the thrills for me is actually, Howie, the journey that you have had, and we're going to get into that, and just the friendship that we've been able to develop from so far away because of God's word. As we begin Howie's story, we want to also set the general context of our theme scriptures. So here's the context. Jesus was speaking to his Jewish brethren and the Pharisees while in the Temple Treasury, which was a public area in the temple. Jesus often was there and often spoke and had conversations there. In John 8:12 we are going back and setting some context. It says: "Then Jesus again spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life." Now, as was usually the case, the Pharisees took issue with these words and they challenged him. Jesus, of course, answered their challenges, and he held to his statement of being "the light of the world." Remember, he said, "He who follows me (Jesus) will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life." As I look at this scripture and I know Howie's story, it really is a theme for me to begin to uncover your experiences, Howie. So looking back, Howie, several years now before your life changed, how would you describe your personal Christianity at that point in time? Were you a happy Christian? What did you study? What was your study life like? What were your life activities like? What was your prayer life like? What kind of Christian was Howie before?

Howie (00:04:09): I considered myself a normal Christian. I would do all the things that I thought normal Christians would do. I, and certainly the people that I associated with, I don't think I would have stood out one way or another. I would consider my Christian walk as going to church on Sunday. And my wife and I, we really enjoyed that. We would go and praise God and sing worship songs and enjoyed the fellowship of our brothers and sisters. One of my favorite times is - the hospitality was great - we would often go to people's place for lunch afterwards and get to know them and their families. That was just absolutely wonderful in terms of God's word and studying it and understanding it. I enjoyed the stories that were in the Bible. I very much embraced the wisdom of Jesus' teachings. It appealed to me. I think this drew me to Christianity. It appealed to me to be able to reflect on my character and see my flaws and make myself a better person, a better husband, a better father, a better work colleague. I liked to work on me in those things. I didn't mind the process of reshaping my character. I really enjoyed that.

Rick (00:05:28): Howie, let me just ask you then; so you took your Christianity home with you then? That's really what I'm hearing you say. It wasn't just, "Hey, I'm at church on Sunday," and then you kind of forget it. But it sounds like you took it home with you and had it as a daily model. Is that accurate?

Howie (00:05:44): Yeah, I hope you're not making me sound way more faithful than I was. Going to church and speaking to these other awesome people made me realize just how much work I needed to do. I didn't mind putting in the work. I guess that was the point I was making. So yeah, so I would go home and I would think, "Okay, Jesus was like this. It's a long way off where I am, so how can I be better in these areas?" I was involved in work, the self-improvement area, if you like, this seminar world. This was not a stretch for me to reflect on my character and how can I be better? How can I help others be better?

Rick (00:06:20): What about studying? Did you do any personal studying? Was it just through church? How did that work?

Howie (00:06:27): Well, we have to understand what "study" means. I guess I could read the Bible intellectually. My wife and I, we did attend Bible studies during the week and I enjoyed those. But they were only to a certain level. Of course, you don't know what you don't know. If somebody asked me, "How did you read the Bible?" I would say most of the time it was as a historical document. These are things that happened. So because they happened, what can I learn from that? How can I make my life better today in a way that's more pleasing to God? I lacked a lot of context and the significance of those things that I just thought were nice to know. But actually they are essential to know if you really want to make sense of what God's plan for us is.

Rick (00:07:13): When you mentioned the word "context," you know very well that that is one of my favorite words in the world. Maybe that is why we get along so well, because it is important to put it all in perspective. Looking back at your life before and seems like life was good, it was going along, it was pleasant. You felt like you were blessed, you were learning things of the scriptures. You were drawing in Jesus into your life, trying to be a better Christian, better person as you went. Pretty accurate?

Howie (00:07:42): Yeah, very much. If you wanted to ask me for a word, it would be contented. I was pretty contented in my Christian faith, had my salvation all sorted out. I'm all good when I go; a family that loved me and a happy marriage, all those sorts of things. So yeah, I was pretty contented.

Rick (00:07:57): Alright, so a contented, happy Christian. That is good. That is good. Folks, a lot of us, we look at our lives and say, "Yeah, that kind of shows me where I am in my own Christian life." The question is though, is that going to be the way it is always going to be? Is our life going to change? Do things get turned upside down? And the answer is absolutely yes. Things do change. They do get turned upside down. The key point here is, this, for you, Howie, was a starting point to a very significant life change. Nobody saw coming, what was going to come. So let's move forward a little bit. So far, we have a story of a Christian man doing what many of us do. Comfortability and predictability aren't bad things. But while we may have those things, we do need to always keep our eyes and ears open to acknowledge God's direction for us. If we are truly His children, His will is for us to grow in Christ. Growth, especially Christian growth, is not usually a comfortable or predictable process. We are going to get into some very uncomfortable, unpredictable things in Howie's story and as we set the context for that next part of the story. Just want to touch back on John 8, so back to Jesus and his conversation with the Pharisees. After telling them many things about us coming down from the Father and his appointed role, Jesus alluded to the trial and sacrifice that he came to bear on our behalf. Jesus' words to them help us to see the pathway of true discipleship. Here's what he said to them in John 8:28-30: "So Jesus said, When you lift up the son of man (essentially when you crucify him), then you will know that I am he, and I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught me. And He who sent me is with me; He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him." Verse 30 says: "As he spoke these things, many came to believe in him." So looking at these verses, you see Jesus predicting what was going to happen to him. And he is also showing us his steadfastness in only doing what the Father will do and the way the Father will have him do it. That is a model for our discipleship. That is a model for truth making us free. With that model. Howie, now we get into some hard things. With that model of trial and difficulty in mind of discipleship, what happened that completely changed your life?

Howie (00:10:28): My friend and I, we belonged to a church that was part of a national organization, and every year they hold a national conference up in Auckland, which is about a one-hour flight and a five-hour drive from our place. So we decided we were going to go to this week-long conference. I was looking forward to that. I had been before, was inspiring and a lot of fun. I remember getting ready that morning, and I said goodbye to my wife and, "I'll see you in a week." My friend and I jumped on a plane and we were up in Auckland and walking into the church. There's about 1,500 people there. The music's blaring, here we go. It was going to be a great time, just looking forward to it. A lot of people there I knew. So it was a good time. So I was just getting ready to go for that. I got an unusual text from my wife. We had been in contact during the day beforehand, and I was up there doing a little bit of business and I was just telling her about that and things were going great, and she wasn't replying to my texts, which was odd. There were some great things I was sharing with her. She told me that she was just a little bit busy and she didn't have a phone on her and things like that. I was actually driving to the event, and I got this text and she said to me, it was only brief, and she said, "Hey, I need to talk to you. I've not been very happy in our marriage, and can you call me?" Yeah, I feel silly saying this now, but I was really quite annoyed with her to share this because here I was about to go and have this great time and this was the time she was going to tell me this? Well, what a bring-down! What a damper! But I thought, all right, I better give her a call. By this stage I was at the event and so I ducked out and I sat in my car and I rang her and I said, "What's up?" And she said, "Look, I have not been happy in our marriage, and I haven't been for some time." I was really confused. We had been married for 12 years. I thought we were really, really happy. I loved her to bits, adored her, and the idea that she actually was not happy was just so heartbreaking for me. But the fact that I was the cause of it; oh, that was almost too much to bear. I was really, really struggling. So it was a combination of shock and surprise and disappointment, and then it turned to fear. Because I was thinking we were going to have a chat and we were going to try and work through it. That was not the purpose of the phone call. It was to tell me that she had packed up and moved out of our house.

Rick (00:13:11): Oh man.

Howie (00:13:12): I thought she meant pack a bag, and she was going to leave and just have the weekend to just think about things. As we talked more and more, I had discovered that she had taken her half of our belongings and she had moved into another place and would not be coming back. So there was this graduated realization that I am not having an awkward discussion about our relationship. My marriage was essentially over. I remember at one point I said to her, "So you are not coming back? You are leaving me?" That process was just so, so difficult. It is just like seeing your whole world just crumble right in front of you. Remember, we are doing this by phone as well. This wasn't in person.

Rick (00:14:00): So this is all happening in that first phone call?

Howie (00:14:04): Yeah.

Rick (00:14:05): Okay. So you are seeing this unfold right before you, before this event that you were excited about was going to start. I am just trying to get the logistics. Okay, good. Go ahead.

Howie (00:14:14): I mean, you are pointing out there is this contrast in emotions for me. I was just feeling really excited and happy and good in the Lord, and then being told by the person I loved the most that she didn't want to have anything to do with me and it was all over. So, I went from a real high to just the lowest. In hindsight, it was easily the most painful half-an-hour of my life, was that conversation. Yeah, I was just a mess.

Rick (00:14:44): Oh man.

Howie (00:14:45): A mess.

Rick (00:14:46): I have never had that kind of an experience. You and I have talked about this several times in the past, but every time I hear this Howie, it just, it is heartbreaking because you are not alone. There is difficulty, there is unhappiness, there's trauma, there's trials, there's misunderstandings, there are all kinds of things that so many of us have, whether we are Christian or not. To have this just brought before you, it is crushing. I will say that Howie, you are a very, you are an emotional individual. You really do lead with your heart. I can't even imagine, can't even imagine this. So you go back to the event? What do you do?

Howie (00:15:25): Yeah, I was only a couple of minutes down the road, so I drove back to the event and I remember walking in and everyone singing and happy and my eyes locked on my friend, and I could tell from the look on his face that he understood the look on my face and something was wrong. I just gestured to him to come outside. I just shared with him what had happened. She's left me. He was very close to my wife, very good friends with her. He loved her to bits as well. On more than one occasion he commented about how lucky I was to have a Christian marriage the way I did. He wasn't married, and I know that was something that he admired and wanted for himself. So to see this, he was under the same misapprehension as I was. It is not all good after all, and yeah, he was shocked. My cousin who was inside, she was a big part of me coming to the Lord. She was there as well, so I got to share it with her and asked her to come out. It was like a car crash incident. I was the injured party and these people were just coming out and tending to my wounds, and they just saw how broken I was and how distraught I was. Again, in hindsight, confused was probably another emotion for me. I had a Christian marriage, I had a Christian wife who loved God and loved her Bible, and yet she was doing something that seemed to me that just wasn't called for by Scripture. That really confused me. This might have been different if I had had an inkling that there were problems in our marriage, and that, "Look, how are you, you're getting all that you asked for?" But that wasn't my perception. I thought we were both very happy. So, it was that being blindsided and just hit from the side when you were not expecting it. That was a massive, probably my prevailing emotion. I know that shame and embarrassment came in pretty quickly too, because in a way I wanted to share with others so they could understand and help me. But I also didn't want to tell people that, "Man, I've failed, not just as a husband; I've failed as a Christian. I thought I was doing a good work here in my marriage, but I was not. I've just hurt this woman so much." I just felt deep shame.

Rick (00:17:59): Your feet had been just pulled out from under you and now you have fallen down. What do you do? How do you try and cope with the immediacy of "my life just changed in an instant. I have to do something." What did you - how did you try to cope?

Howie (00:18:13): The initial thing was just shock, of course. But then me being me, and I'm a bit of a Mr. Fix-it. Don't focus on the problem, focus on the solution.

Rick (00:18:23): I hear you.

Howie (00:18:26): So yeah, for a lot of the guys out there who understand that; "I can fix this. Not a problem. I'll apologize and be contrite and admit to my mistakes and all will be good in the world." I walked out of the conference and booked a flight back straight away to go and see my wife and be with her and apologize. That is without fully knowing what her grievance was, because she didn't share a lot of that. I still was not completely sure exactly what it was that I had done wrong. I should add, because the listeners will be thinking about this, was there another bloke involved? Bless her for doing this because she said to me clearly, "Look, there is no other person. So you don't have to worry about that." Which led me to think of another thing. "Well, oh man, you are not just leaving me. You are not even leaving me for somebody else. You would rather be on your own than be with me." My worthlessness sort of, just really...

Rick (00:19:23): Yeah, it expands. Yeah, it expands. It's like, there there's no place to hide now.

Howie (00:19:27): Yeah, exactly. And so while I was thinking a big part of my life had disappeared, she was probably thinking, a painful part of my life has disappeared. She was looking forward. So to have the person that you love the most feel that way about you, it's just soul-destroying and yeah, it's really difficult. But anyway, as I say, my focus was to fix whatever is wrong and make it right. I got home. It was within 24 hours, and of course, what I wanted to do was meet with her and again, once she saw me face-to-face and saw how sorry I was, and was willing to listen to her and understand her pain and everything, she'll come around. I'm confident. The only one big problem with my plan, and that is she did not want to see me.

Rick (00:20:17): Wow.

Howie (00:20:18): She was not interested in that. Once I realized that, I said, "Well, can we talk?" We are doing this by text, which is just really difficult. She said, "Look, I will call you in two days' time," which come on, that's... really? But I thought, okay, well that is what you want. That was a really painful time just thinking, how is this going to go? What am I going to say? What is she going to say? That was really difficult.

Rick (00:20:46): You are stuck. Your plans for fixing obviously are not going to be working. This is a problem. This is a tragedy that is like a runaway train. You just can't get in its way. It is like gotten a life of its own, and it is overwhelming you. Again, I cannot imagine the depth of despair that you feel in that period of time. I just want to throw a scripture into this because kind of looking forward and realizing where you have come, James 1:2-4 says: "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." Here you are being tested beyond what you could have expected, understood, known, and could even reason on and get your head around. It was that big. It was that overwhelming. You are now in that searching place where, "Okay, what do I do? Where do I go?" Then you find Christian Questions. How did that happen? Let's open that door now because this is horrible. This is overwhelmingly tragic. How do you go about finding something to do, to listen to, to look at, to read, to think about, to help ease the pain?

Howie (00:22:05): So Rick, there is just something I think might be of value to go back on. So if we can just do a little segment here, and then I will answer your question.

Rick (00:22:12): Yeah, sure.

Howie (00:22:12): Rick, I flew home and I knew I had to go and walk into my house and I knew that it would be half-empty. And so I got my adult son to come with me because I knew I needed support. I have to tell you, if the phone call was the most painful experience of my life, this was probably the second most painful. To walk into your house and see all the things that reflected your wife's personality, and everything gone. I went into the bathroom and I opened up the cabinet and it was just my shaving razor and things, shaving foam and that all her little womany things, they had all gone. It was so, so sad and so painful to know that her and her family and friends had been through our house and had been emptying out of all her things while I was away. Because I loved them. They were my friends and they were my family too. Just the enormity of this was like a tidal wave of emotions just coming over me. It was just so difficult. But I did get the chance to talk to her, and we had that conversation. During that time, she made it very clear to me because I kept saying to her, okay, so when are we going to meet? How are we going to make this better? She really made it clear to me (although emotionally, I wasn't even hearing this), it's over. We are not getting back together. I'm not coming home. Our marriage is over. It was actually going to take me a year to realize that it was over. Because as I will share later, the hope was still there for me that okay, this is just a knockback, this is just the first round. I can take this. She will come around. I still clung to hope. I have learned from my experience that hope is a good thing, but hope is also a very, very difficult thing if it is false hope. I did not realize it was false hope. I was clinging to something that wasn't there at all. So...

Rick (00:24:18): You said it took you about a year to come around from that. So, you are struggling in this for a very long time then?

Howie (00:24:25): Very much so. I would be going to work and I could barely do my job. I work a lot on my own so I could cry on my own. And I did that for many, many weeks. I think I worked out I couldn't go for more than about three minutes without thinking about her. When something like that is just so on your mind, it is very exhausting. I have never struggled with depression, but I have known others who have, and I wanted to make sure that I protected myself from that possibility. I did a number of things to guard myself. So I would talk to others, talk to my pastor, I would spend time with my family and all those sorts of things. So I am really glad I did that because I kept away from being dragged down into a depressive state. I am sure I suffered some form of depression, but it wasn't debilitating. But it was pretty hard going to work and trying to function normally and just to be so sad. I remember one person said to me, "Gosh, you look like the world has collapsed on you. You got the world on your shoulders."

Rick (00:25:32): Yeah. He was right.

New Speaker (00:25:33): Yeah, that's exactly how I was feeling.

Rick (00:25:37): Man.

Howie (00:25:37): Look, I was very blessed. I did have people who cared about me around me, and they struggled for things to say to make me feel better. I relied on my pastor to provide me with good, well, not just moral support, but also guidance and terms of what God was wanting me to do, what the scriptures said about these sort of situations. Because I really wanted to do the right thing by God. I know what I wanted in my flesh, but I also wanted to do the right thing by God, and by my wife. I wanted to meet with her. But I had read some stuff that said, look, women in these situations really need time. They have left for a reason, and it is to be away from you. So I thought, well, that's okay. I'll give it that. I don't want to come across as pushy, but I wanted her to know that I still loved her dearly and still wanted our marriage to be reconciled. I can't speak highly enough of my pastor. He was wonderful and loving. He put up with the tears as well, and all the millions of questions I had. I was surviving, which, anybody who has gone through anything like this or another tragedy, you know that sub feeling in itself, just to survive, just to get out of bed every day, let alone go to work, have a smile on your face; that is a remarkable achievement. I was thankful I was able to do that.

Rick (00:26:54): You are going through, you have got support, your pastor is wonderful, and you are going from utter despair to surviving. It is a coping process that, because you have no sense of what the end is going to be, and right now it is not going in the direction you want, you are looking at this and saying, "This is really, really, really difficult." As you are going through and you are coping and you have got your support, tell us about your son's interaction with you and just your next step.

Howie (00:27:24): I will throw a new word in here. I was contented before this all happened. My predominant feeling now was hopelessness. I just didn't see any way of getting my marriage back together. So I decided, it is going to have to be through God. I can't make this happen. I've tried to.

Rick (00:27:41): There you go.

Howie (00:27:42): How can I ensure God is walking with me here and I am walking close to Him? So I had a chat with my pastor, and he said something very interesting to me. He was shaking his head and I said, "What is it?" And he says, "You know what, I've worked out that I have probably had about a dozen people, couples included, sit in front of me with a similar story to yours, and you are telling me you want to draw closer to God. Do you know how many have done that out of those twelve?" I said, "How many?" He said, "Zero." He said, "None of them, Howie. He said, they all have walked away from the Lord." I was saying, "Look, I don't understand that. I cannot carry this burden on my own. I want God to help me." What is up with that? So, and I must admit, that really encouraged me because I am the sort of guy that if someone tells me I can't do it, then I think I can, and if everyone else gives up, I do not want to give up. So that sort of gave me a bit of determination as look, I am going to be that guy that presses into God. I thought, well, how can I do this? My time is limited. I work long hours, but I was talking to my son about it. I said, "Look, I want to find out more about what God wants me in this situation, but I just don't really have time. My time is limited." And he said, "Well Dad, you drive a lot in your job. Do you know about podcasts?" I said, "Well, I have heard of them, but I don't really know what they are." Don't judge me, folks, this was like six years ago. He said, "Man, no, podcasts are great, Dad, as long as you got WiFi coverage, you can listen to podcasts and there are a lot of Christian podcasts and you'll be able to do that for hours a day. "And I thought, well, I will give this a shot. This sounds really good. So I typed in "Christian podcasts." It was the two words I I typed into Google. So I looked at the first two and they looked all right, but they looked a little light. They didn't have a great deal of content. But I saw this third one and this third one was called Christian Questions. I looked at it and I thought, wow, there's quite a bit of content here. This is looking good. I will give this a go. I started listening to these two guys, these two Americans. One just sounded like the nicest guy in the world. That's Jonathan, of course.

Rick (00:29:52): That has to be Jonathan. Of course, it has to be Jonathan. Of course, it's Jonathan. Go ahead.

Howie (00:29:56): That's the guy I want to be. If I was a guy like that, no, my wife would never have left me. He was so, so loving and gentle. But there was this other guy and he was kind of annoying in a fun way.

Rick (00:30:10): Wait, wait, wait. Did you say annoying? I heard that!

Howie (00:30:15): Yeah, he would interrupt the other guy.

Rick (00:30:17): Oh, like I'm doing right now, you mean?

Howie (00:30:19): Like you just did now.

Rick (00:30:19): Okay, okay, just checking.

Howie (00:30:22): Yeah. So, he interrupted this really nice guy, and he would say things that were really confronting and he had this squeaky little voice. Actually I thought it was a woman the first time I heard him.

Rick (00:30:34): Oh, okay. This is getting better.

Howie (00:30:36): Sorry brother.

Rick (00:30:38): It's all good.

Howie (00:30:38): I think you must have got really excited and things like that. And I thought, oh, hang on, Jonathan said his name was Rick. So my first reaction to Christian Questions was, man, these guys are having a lot of fun talking about Christian things.

Rick (00:30:50): Yeah, that's for sure.

Howie (00:30:50): This banter, and I love to have a laugh and I love being with my male friends and having that joshing and everything, and you guys were having it. I thought, oh man, this is a bit different. This isn't all super-serious all the time and all religiousy and all that sort of stuff. So I thought, oh, I'll give these guys a listen to. I would listen to podcast after podcast. At that time you had talk back. You were fielding calls from people, and that interested me, because this wasn't pre-scripted. You guys were just shooting from the hip. I remember being amazed by (a listener who called in when CQ was a radio program) our friend that I'm talking about, he was not a believer. He was, well, he was an ex-believer.

Rick (00:31:33): He was an atheist. He was an out-and-out atheist.

Howie (00:31:37): Yeah, and I could tell he was carrying a lot of hurt, but he was also angry. He would ask you what I thought were extremely difficult questions I got a wee bit upset with him at times. But Rick, you always amazed me with how both of you dealt with him; so loving, so patient, you never told him off, even though he was so wrong in some areas. Of course, you answered him according to scripture. I thought, man, I can really l learn a lot of lessons from these guys about how to deal with people and understanding the word of God. That really impressed me. I made a decision; this is worth my time. I will commit to regularly listening to these podcasts. Of course, the wonderful thing you had that no other podcast had was these archives. I thought each weekly session was great, but you had literally hundreds. I think you had got over the thousand mark worth of podcasts on every conceivable topic. The website was easy to negotiate. I think I was listening to around about two or three podcasts a day. These are in the days where your podcasts, Rick, were two hours long.

Rick (00:32:41): Two hours.

Howie (00:32:44): Yeah. And I didn't always listen to them just once.

Rick (00:32:47): No wonder you thought I was annoying! You heard me six hours a day! Okay, I'm getting the picture now. Go ahead.

Howie (00:32:53): Yeah, I know, exactly. Of course, with that came the spiritual food you were feeding me and the learning was just incredible. But there was also the friendship that was developing between us. I was getting to know you guys and I was thinking, these guys are pretty cool. Yeah. I relate to them. They're real. Other Christians I had met, they are all nice and very loving and dear. But there was just a depth to your concern for people and your concern for the truth, your passion for discerning truth from error that I really had never experienced before. I guess in a way I was thinking, I want to be like that. This is what I want to know about. Now, this is me confronting my Christian walk. Of course, I'm still trying to deal with the pain and loss and grief...

Rick (00:33:39): Yeah sure.

Howie (00:33:39): ...that I was undergoing with my wife walking out on me, which was only months before. So yeah, it was a dark time, but it was a great time of light and truth as well. Yeah. It was an interesting time for me.

Rick (00:33:53): You find this podcast and what draws you is the cohesiveness to scripture. What Christian Questions always has tried to do is to put scriptures in the context of real life and just be real about it and not be so deep that nobody can hear you or be so shallow that nobody is going to learn anything. It is interesting that you were so, so drawn to these things and, and just, again, a couple of scriptures because we are thinking about, does biblical truth really make us free? And the answer is, oh yes, absolutely it does. I'm thinking as you are talking about this, Romans 10:14-15, it says: "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? And how will they preach unless they are sent?" Howie, my brother, my dear, dear friend, we were sent. We were, and you were there to receive those messages over that period of time during this very, very difficult, tragic period of your life. You felt like you were establishing a friendship with us. We had no idea who you were. What came next?

Howie (00:34:55): Yeah. I thought, this is crazy, man. I love these guys. They don't even know I exist. So being in the presentation business as I was as well, I understand that you are on the stage and you are sharing, you don't necessarily know what's in the hearts and minds of the people you are talking to.

Rick (00:35:11): Right.

Howie (00:35:11): Even more so, of course, with the podcast and radio that you were doing, literally didn't even see the people you were reaching out to. And so I thought, look, for all they have given me, the least I can do is just to send a thank you and just let them know that I appreciate it. I decided that the least I could do was make it a decent thank you. And so not just a one- or two-liner. I am going to do something a little more expansive and just share a wee bit of my heart and maybe a little bit of my story as well, so that they know that they have had a massive impact on me, and they have got a friend on the other side of the world they do not even know about. So I sat down, it would have taken me maybe half-an-hour, three-quarters of an hour to draft that email. It would have been about like a one-pager, I think it was, and just saying basically, thank you guys, you cracked me up, but you also challenge me with what you are teaching. You have had a massive impact. I am going through this separation that is so painful and you guys are giving me so, so much hope. You are helping me be strong in the Lord to get through this, and I consider you my friends. I just do not know how I could ever repay you. Thank you, thank you so much. Keep up the good work, basically. And I press "Send," expecting never to hear from you again. That was okay. I understand these things. You are all busy. You probably get thousands of these emails every week. But hey, my conscience was clear. I shared with you. I was grateful. I shared with you what was on my heart. So that was all good.

Rick (00:36:41): Well, and now the other side of that, Howie, is that the day that you sent that email, we, Brother Jonathan and I, we were at a Bible convention. The convention was just going to get started the next day. We had arrived the evening before, and we were actually at a restaurant, going to have dinner together with several other Christian Questions workers and supporters, and we were just going to have a brief meeting about how we were doing, what's going on and what's happening. Becca, one of our CQ volunteers, hands me a printed email. She says, "Hey, look at this. This just came in," and it was your email. It was really, really, really a beautifully written story of someone who just had overt appreciation. When I started the meeting, I said to all of these volunteers, I said, "Listen, I have to read this to you. I do not know who this person is, but I am going to be getting in contact with them." I read this email from you with those great, great, great, deep thanks. Howie, we do get a lot of emails, but when you step out and you show such gratitude in such detail, it really touches the heart of the person you are reaching out to. You find Christian Questions because your son explains to you what a podcast is, and you start listening. Now suddenly life is beginning to change a little bit. Folks, how often do we look back at our lives and realize that our greatest periods of growth, change and progress have come from a direct result of our most difficult, trying, and traumatic experiences? These events shake us up, throw us off balance, cause us to question, doubt, and search. It is in times like these of internal turmoil that God's providence can shine through. If we seek His will, we can be provoked to let go of old ways of thinking and grab hold of His direction. So Howie, you are in the midst of this great struggle of your life. You found some hope and some peace, by God's grace, through connecting with our podcast. You wrote in, I wrote back to you and said, "Hey, can I talk to you on Zoom?" So now we have this Zoom meeting scheduled between you and I. Just have to ask you, what was your first impression when you and I met on Zoom that very, very first time? Do you remember?

Howie (00:38:52): Of course, I remember it very clearly. There you are in front of me. It was the first time I had seen you. For some reason I had not discovered the Christian Questions videos and things. So it was the first time I had visually got to see you. My response internally was very clear, here is this guy--you are going to feel very awkward as I say this--but a real superstar, a legend.

Rick (00:39:18): Yeah, awkward. Yep, awkward. Go ahead. Keep going.

Howie (00:39:22): Well, good, good. That's all right. I don't mind you feeling awkward.

Rick (00:39:25): Thank you.

Howie (00:39:25): I know a lot of people feel this way about you, and you selflessly share and commit the amount of time you must spend and the callers you must deal with and all these sort of things. And you have taken the time to sit down with me? I mean, don't forget; one, I was not expecting any reply to my email.

Rick (00:39:45): Sure, sure.

Howie (00:39:45): But I get a reply and then you're going to talk with me. Well, okay, that's good. I had no idea it would even go beyond that. I thought, well, this is a nice to-do. He probably does this with lots of callers. So, and that blew me away that you would just give me probably what is going to be fifteen minutes maybe of your time, and I was really grateful and blown away by that. There is a real lesson in this because kindness is just something that is really important to me. It is just when you show kindness to somebody, I think you really show the love of Jesus to them, whether you are in a Christian or non-Christian environment. It is overwhelming for somebody who does not expect it. I was a recipient in that situation, that you were showing me so much love and kindness and understanding, let alone the way you talk, just so caring and compassionate. But then you gave up your time and that was my first response. But of course, the other thing that happened within minutes was just how we got along.

Rick (00:40:42): Yeah, yeah.

Howie (00:40:43): I wasn't even sure you could understand a word I was saying. You know, I had heard Americans find New Zealanders as sometimes a bit tricky. So I understand.

Rick (00:40:51): Yeah, that's true, that's true.

Howie (00:40:53): Well, you have done very well. You have never shown it in all these years. And let alone understand my personal situation. Yet you did. I liked you instantly. I could tell we were going to get along, we would be good friends, but still had no idea where things were going to go. It was such a blessing, that call. It was brilliant.

Rick (00:41:14): And for me, Howie, I remember very vividly, we get onto the Zoom call and it's, "Hey, I'm Rick," and you had that starstruck look in your eyes, like, whoa. I am thinking to myself, I wonder how long it is going to take him to realize I am just a regular guy. There is nothing different here. I am just somebody who has been given incredible privilege, but I am just a normal person. And we connected on not just the human level, but very, very, very, very much on the spiritual level. For me, responding to that email personally was in my own heart and mind, the least I could do, because somebody, whoever it was, was just deeply touched. The whole idea is, look, maybe this is a Christian who is searching. Look, maybe they have had troubles. Look, maybe they want more truth. Maybe they need to have spiritual companionship and friendship and brotherhood. I think of Romans 12:4-9 in this context: "For just as we have many members in one body and all members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil; cling to that which is good." My objective in meeting you face-to-face across the world via Zoom, was to just make a connection on a spiritual level with somebody who showed appreciation for God's word. That was it. What ended up happening is we connected and began to fellowship on a regular basis via Zoom, right?

Howie (00:43:13): Well, I remember the very sentence you said at the end, which just blew me away, which was, "So should we do this again next week?" What? You want to carry this on? I just couldn't believe it. I thought, this guy wants to keep working with me and investing more time in me. And yeah, that's very, very humbling and overwhelming, given the distance. If you live just down the road and, "Let's catch up for a coffee," yeah, I get that. But here is this guy that is clearly extremely busy. He's willing to spend time with somebody he will probably never, ever meet. I will take issue that you are just an ordinary guy. I know what you mean, but your love for people and your love for God's word, things of the Lord's, they are far from ordinary. But I know what you mean.

Rick (00:44:02): After that first meeting, I got the sense, and I believe I felt the provoking of God's spirit to say, "You need to stay with this individual. You need to work with him. He is looking, he needs to be fed." To me, that's what I was provoked to do by God's grace. You were very, very, very open to it. Again, that is God's grace unfolding before us. That's the body of Christ beginning to work together in a very, very unlikely way. We had this connection and we started doing this each and every week. Now we are studying together as you are listening to podcasts. So you are beginning to see your discipleship now through different eyes. You have been listening to the podcast for a while, and now we have got this communication going and the hope and new sense of Christian freedom that was being planted in your heart and mine remind me of another scripture here, John 17:15-19. This is Jesus praying in the garden of Gethsemane for his followers the night before he dies. He says: "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent me into the world, I have also sent them into the world. For their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves may also be sanctified in truth." We studied truth together as we talked through your issues and the tragedy with your wife leaving, it was a combination of all of those things. You were full of questions and deeply serious and contemplative about the things that we discussed. There is a change that is happening in your life now, and you really, really are drawing yourself to being able to cope in a little bit of a different way; well, in a lot of a different way. I saw that, I saw that developing you little by little. My next question to you; how did you deal with the growing contradictions between Christian Questions and our personal studies and your church and your pastor? Because now there are things that are not quite even on both sides, and you are sort of sitting in the middle. What began going through your mind as this was developing?

Howie (00:46:13): It was a gradual process, is the first thing I would say. I would be spending time with you and listening to Christian Questions, discussing biblical doctrine and passages from the Bible. Then I was going to church and I was having a very different experience there. What became clear to me, probably with hindsight, I was not aware at the time, was just that church was very much a feel-good factor for me. It is about fellowships, spending time and the cups of tea afterwards and all that was really, really nice. And the happy music and giving praise to the Lord and just singing about how lovely, how great God is and how wonderful Jesus is and all those things, but it lacked the depth. Always my favorite time during church time was the teaching. I wanted to know more. The things that I was content to hear in the past were suddenly not. This isn't enough, was was one conclusion I had. Then, sadly, I don't think this is right.

Rick (00:47:17): Interesting.

Howie (00:47:17): There is a conflict here. And if what my pastor is saying is right, then what Rick is saying is wrong and vice versa. So I kind of had this thing, this conflict going in my mind, like just something is not adding up here. And it wasn't on one topic, it wasn't on one verse, it was just about like on every one of them. This area doesn't sound right. This subject doesn't sound right. This answer doesn't sound right. You say I asked a lot of questions. Well, this only provoked more questions.

Rick (00:47:50): Oh, I know, I know, I know. There are questions upon questions. Rick, what about this and what, and my pastor said this, and what do you think? It was this very free back and forth, just whatever came into your mind from a scriptural perspective, from a spiritual perspective, we put on the table and talked about.

Howie (00:48:06): Yeah. And the difference, Rick, and I don't think I've ever shared this with you, is that, so I wasn't just asking you questions, I was asking my pastor questions.

Rick (00:48:15): Oh, you were?

Howie (00:48:16): I needed to give him an opportunity to say, "Well, look, this guy is teaching this, but you are saying this, or explain." The difference in my experience was you gave very complete, very consistent and very scripturally based answers to me. My pastor did not. Now again, I don't want to badmouth him. Lovely guy, loves the Lord. But when somebody is unable to answer your questions, then you have to question, well, is that the truth or is that not the truth? Contrast that with somebody else that has taken an opposing view, being able to answer all the questions consistently, according to scripture. My path ahead was beginning to become clear.

Rick (00:48:58): I want to mention this because you had talked in your previous experience when you were going through this horrible, horrible experience at the very beginning when your wife first left you, that pastor was the one who held you up. So he had this heart for God, and he had this desire to keep you in the way, to keep you looking up. It really is a wonderful blessing. Things are different now, but I just want to draw attention to the role that he played in your life at the most vulnerable point in time of your entire existence. He was one of those people that was there for you. I thank God for that. I absolutely, positively thank God for that. So the questions and the difficulties started to grow and blossom. You are seeing things from different perspectives now. When we set our hearts and minds on new patterns of thought that bring a new and, by God's grace, stronger sense of real true discipleship, we are bound to have issues and challenges continually arise. That is exactly what you're talking about. Being a follower of Christ is not just a one-time decision. It is a daily transformation that causes us to reassess all of our lives and our previous commitments. The question always is, am I focused on moving forward to higher freedom in Christ, or am I drawn back to that which was once comfortable? Howie, I watched this part of your Christian development firsthand, because you and I met pretty much every week for, I don't know, maybe a year or something. We became fast friends. We shared experiences, we shared our studies, we shared our questions. We shared prayers for God's grace and wisdom. As we uncover the next phase of your Christian walk I want to re-quote our theme scripture, John 8:31-32: "So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed him, If you continue in my word, then you are truly disciples of mine." So "if you continue in my word..." See, people had believed in him. His advice was, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples. And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." Tell us about the trip, okay. And you know exactly what I am talking about. Because this was a big thing for you, what journey did you have your heart set upon? And then what journey did you end up taking? Tell us about the trip,

Howie (00:51:29): Just the context, essentially like that. I had a foot in each camp, really.

Rick (00:51:33): Yeah, you did.

Howie (00:51:35): Foot firmly planted in my home church. I had a foot planted in what I was learning from you, and being part of the church, my pastor had an overseas ministry. He would travel to India once a year, actually. I think it might be every two years now, to preach the gospel and to see people come to the Lord, and as part of that, to conduct a healing ministry. There were these people in very poor communities who had all sorts of ailments and afflictions, and he would go there. And part of that, and he would sometimes take a team, and they would do healing. Also part of that, in between, he would run two or three times a year, an online service where he would preach the gospel. And so we would have to get up at three o'clock in the morning. This is during the week, so I started work at five in the morning. So it was a bit tough. He would preach the gospel for about 45 minutes and then give the altar call, if you like. And like a hundred people would come to the Lord, make a decision for Christ. So he said, look, these things cost money. We need you to dig deep, people, and help fund all this. Man, I was just a real proponent of tithing and everything like that. So I thought, I'm in four hundred bucks, let's go. Four hundred bucks, that's $4 a soul. Awesome! I'm going to be able to stand before God and say I have done a good thing. I sponsored some of these events and just was amazed. Then my pastor said to me, "Listen, I've got this trip coming up in about a year's time for next year, and I really would like you to come to India and to preach." I said what about the healing thing? I had never done anything like that - laid hands on people or anything like that. He said, "Yeah, you can be involved in that. Be a part of that." At the time, I was really excited. There was a curiosity in me that wanted to see these limbs grown back and people who could never walk, walk, and blind people see, and all these sorts of things. Yeah, so I was really excited about that. So I made the decision, I am going, and I paid my 50% deposit, I think, on my trip through a travel agent. I was all set to go. I remember being excited about telling you about this.

Rick (00:53:45): Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just before you go further, you are telling me about this trip and about all of this healing. Of course, those are things that we do not believe are scripturally sound at this point. I am listening and hearing this incredible excitement, and I am thinking to myself, okay, let him think it through. Let him work through it. Give him encouragement, scripturally, but let's see if he can put this all in order. I have got a little bit of a trepidation on my side, because you are really excited about this trip. When Howie gets excited about something, everybody around will know it. And so we are going through several weeks of studying and talking and all of that. Now pick up and continue.

Howie (00:54:30): Well, of course, as I was doing this and we were having our Bible studies, I was still listening to lots and lots of Christian Questions. I would go back through the archives and pick out some of the things I wanted to learn about. A lot of them were these things around the conflicts I was having with what I was learning from you and what I was learning from my pastor. Hey, look, not just him, every pastor that I have been under. Before that I have lived in a few cities. So I have been to probably a dozen churches in my time. So I have listened to a lot of them. Consistently they were teaching the same things as my current pastor that time was teaching. So I had this conflict and I thought, well, I better study it. Wading through the word was not the way for me. I always struggled with that.

Rick (00:55:12): Sure.

Howie (00:55:12): I don't know where to start. I don't know where to look. How does the Old Testament tie in with the New Testament? Don't they seem to contradict themselves? How is something from three to four thousand years ago relevant to today? Struggled with all that. I tended not to look for my answers there, but I didn't have to with Christian Questions to the extent that you could do that work so well. I didn't know Hebrew words and Greek and why that was important and all those sorts of things. So because you had done a lot of that work with your archives, I thought, well, that's a good place for me to start. I started looking at some of these things and of course that included divine healing or faith healing. What does the Bible really say about that? A couple of other troubling doctrines for me as well, so I thought I had better go and have a look at those thing,s like marriage and divorce, things like hellfire, the working of the holy spirit. Does God promise us a good life or not? All these sorts of things. I spent a great deal of time listening, studying, talking to my pastor, talking to you about these things. Yes, that was a fascinating journey. I really enjoyed that process. But of course, as I was learning about the healing side of these things, I was learning a different side to what I had been taught for many years, keeping in mind, in mainstream Christianity, and many of our listeners are ten mainstream churches, you will understand what I am saying. Your church may believe in that, and you may even believe in it. But there is a big part of you that goes, is this really true? Is this really genuine? I even went up for prayer myself and asked for healing. I didn't get healed. I saw other people with all sorts of ailments. Some claimed to have been healed but many were not, or many felt better at the time, but had the same problem a few weeks later. So I just had this problem that, man, something is not adding up here. It just doesn't sound right. But of course, the big problem I was having was that in a few months time, I am going to be heading off to India and I am going to be not just observing this, I am going to be partaking in this. How am I going to handle that? Because I do not want to be on the other side of the world and find myself in a situation that I am extremely uncomfortable with. So it was tough situation.

Rick (00:57:30): So, what did you do with that? You are looking at it, you were looking forward to it. I watched, over the weeks of our studying together, how your questions started to get bigger and your enthusiasm started to look a little bit more, more guarded, I guess, is a good way to put it. So what did you end up doing with that trip?

Howie (00:57:50): Yeah. You say darkened. I say dampened. Yeah, I wasn't as, because I had this conflict. One day I decided, no, the risk is too big. I am not going to commit to this expense, to this time, time off work, and go over there and have these expectations on me to do this work. And for me to fold. I was not prepared to do it. I did a risk assessment basically, and decided I am pulling the plug here. Now, that came with a cost because I had to discuss this with my pastor, and I was not looking forward to that. I looked like I am flip-flopping and all those sorts of things. I was still only learning about this stuff as well. So, would I be able to answer his questions and his challenges to me biblically? So I was a little fearful of that. I decided I would tell him, but I would do it over the phone. I really chickened out there and wait, it gets worse. I did not tell him the real reason I was not going. I couldn't, so I just told him I changed my mind and I did not think it was for me and all these lame (pardon the pun) excuses, and he was very gracious. He told me he was extremely disappointed, and I thought I had dodged a bullet. Yeah. Wow. That's great. Thank you for being so gracious. I am sorry I let you down. I was about disappointed myself that I wasn't honest and told him the real reason. But there were some reasons for that. Had I started that conversation, I could have finished it as to why I thought scripturally it was wrong. That would have hurt him immensely because realize how much he has invested in these trips over the years, and all the people he said he has brought to Christ and all that, that would have been very painful for him to have heard a contrary view. So partly for him, and mainly for me, I decided to say nothing. So, I had this dilemma. So, my logical brain kicked in now was that okay, I have got away with that, but I have got this financial loss that I have got to write off here, my 50 percent deposit. And that kind of bothered me. I do not like wasting money like that. Then I had this brilliant idea. I thought, I just wonder. So I rang the travel agent and I said, "Listen, I have to cancel my tickets, but is there any chance of a refund?" He said to me, "Look, you will not get it all back, but you can get back a decent part of it if you apply it towards another trip. I thought, okay, well that is interesting. I wonder where would I like to go in the world? It is kind of a nice problem to have. I thought, oh, there is somewhere I would really, really like to go. There's somebody I would really, really like to meet. I remember the day I rang you and I said, "Oh, I've got some news. I've got some good news."

Rick (01:00:33): Yeah. When we got on that Zoom call, you were the cat that ate the canary. You had this big old smile and I am thinking, what is up with him? What is going on? He looks like he's bursting, because we had been dealing with the doubts and the scriptural inconsistencies. I'm hearing this here, and that there, there had been a lot of questioning. But this particular Zoom call, you were just there. Howie, you told me that you are coming to see us.

Howie (01:01:02): Yes, I did. I was so excited. I didn't even know whether you would want me coming over there or what have you, but I was fairly safe in the knowledge that you would be excited. Of course, you were. The amazing thing about that was, I wasn't to know at that time, I was just coming over to see you. But not knowing, not only that, but we could put together a really amazing time of not just fellowship, but study, time meeting other brethren who believed in what the Bible says on these myriad of topics. Of course, I was very excited about the idea of just having the chance to ask you even more questions on top of the hundreds I had already asked you at this point.

Rick (01:01:45): And you did, and you did. You came with a list.

Howie (01:01:49): I have come all that way, come on, I have to do it. So I took a month off work and jumped on a plane and we had had a pretty exciting itinerary sorted out. No healing ministries involved in those things, of course. I have been to America before and always loved it. The most appealing thing about Americans to me is how much they love New Zealanders. I know that sounds really selfish. But I never stray. Every time I opened my mouth, somebody was being friendly and wanting to talk to me. So it was always a nice place for me that way. But of course the other more serious side was just being able to have the chance to learn more and wow, what a trip that was.

Rick (01:02:29): Yeah. I want to touch on one part. That trip was tremendous, it was really tremendous. We were at a Bible conference for several days, and you worked the trip so we could be at that conference together and we were going through things and that is where you first arrived. It was just great, just such a great uniting in person for a relationship that had been so strong via Zoom. I remember we were talking about your Christian walk, and there's one detail I want to ask you about. At our Bible conference, we were going to have a baptism session. You had asked me about it. You were looking at that. I said, "Well, baptism is a symbol." And you said, "Well," and in your initial response to me was, "No, I've been baptized. I'm good, I'm good." I said, "Well," and I asked you, "do you know, do you really understand when you were baptized, what it was that you were baptized for?" And so we talked about that. That night we had a wonderful, very long, wonderful conversation. When I left, you seem to have been very content, like, no, I'm good, I'm good. The next morning something happened and you came looking for me, like with this zeal and this enthusiasm. What was it that you saw in your mind that changed your mind and you decided to be baptized at that convention with these brethren?

Howie (01:03:49): Well, I guess everybody who calls himself a faithful follower of Jesus Christ wants to be able to stand before God and say, "Look, I was a good and faithful servant. I did what you wanted me to do." I thought at that time that I could do that. But during our conversation, I realized there was something missing. And that kind of bugged me, and not at the time that we were talking, but afterwards, you had explained to me about a baptism of repentance. And yeah, you are right, I said, "Yeah, I'm all good on that. Let's move on." Because then when I was baptized, yeah, I was really sorry for what I had done. I had acknowledged my sinful nature, my sinful life, and people I had hurt and God I had hurt. I had tears streaming down my face when I walked up and accepted the Lord. When I got baptized and was washed clean of all that sin, oh, I was very repenting, Rick. So I am all good on that, thank you. But of course, you went on and said, well, okay, okay. But there is another piece to it. That is when you started to explain about surrendering everything and sacrificing everything for God. And everything means everything.

Rick (01:04:51): Yeah.

Howie (01:04:52): What, you mean everything? You mean like my life and that, you mean my time, my passions and my desires? You mean I should be willing to sacrifice all that for God as well? Even my car and stuff like that? Like it is not mine? Is that what you are saying? Now of course intellectually, I had heard this before, but in my heart, I was being really convicted by it. You helped me realize that when I got baptized, I had been repentant, but I had not sacrificed everything to God. I was holding onto what I wanted to do with my life, what was important to me. God's will in my life was just a little add-on, a tag on that I was willing to do every now and again, certainly between ten and twelve every Sunday, I am happy to give Him that time up and everything else by negotiation. So, and that's a long way of course, different from what you were talking to me about. I went away thinking about all this stuff. You had given me so much to think about, but it was very clear to me the difference between what I did and what you were telling me. And I thought, no, no. That is the relationship I want with God. That is what I want to do. I want to do this. You had mentioned there was a baptismal service the next morning. And I didn't know how these things went out. I had never been to a convention before and let alone a baptismal service. And it was not a difficult decision. It was a very challenging revelation that you had shared with me. But it wasn't a difficult decision to say, "Look, I'm all in." I do not want to be a lukewarm Christian. I just do not want to be playing around with this stuff. If God wants this from me, man, I'm in. And so I remember just packing my stuff for the convention and did not take my togs (bathing suit) there because I wasn't planning on going for... "Trunks," do you call them over there?

Rick (01:06:38): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Howie (01:06:38): But I had some shorts and I had a towel, so I chucked them in my bag. Went down the hall to tell you the good news.

Rick (01:06:45): Yeah, I know, it was funny. That morning at the convention, I had not seen you. I was busy with something and several brethren came up to me and said, "Have you talked to Howie yet? Have you talked to Howie? Howie is looking for you." And it's like, wait, okay. All right. All right, I'm here. But I had no idea that you had come to that conclusion. And again, brother, I have to tell you, that when I saw you at the convention, you had this peaceful glow of godliness about you that said, I'm home. And it really, really sunk in for me at that moment when you told me, "I need to be baptized because I understand what sacrifice is, and I am all in on living that life of sacrifice." It really struck me that you had found your way home through all of that trauma, all of that trial, all of that difficulty, all of those contradictions, all of those things, you had finally come to a place where you would know the truth and the truth would make you free. That, to me, was a dramatic, tremendous, tremendous blessing. Howie, I just have to tell you that sitting in my seat, you cannot imagine the thrill that I have had, knowing you, watching this growth and this process as you have gone through your Christian life, growing up in Christ, and being able to be there and just see it happen from thousands and thousands and thousands of miles away and then in person. So, God has truly, truly, truly blessed you. Such an amazing and inspirational story. Coming up in Part II of our story, how did Howie finally resolve his tragic breakup with his wife in his own heart? What Bible teachings caused him to see things differently? How has Bible truth really set our friend and brother free? That's all coming up next week, folks. We love hearing from our listeners. We welcome your feedback and questions on this episode and other episodes at ChristianQuestions.com. Talk to you next week.

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